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      The percentage of men under the age of 30 who report not having had sex in at least a year came in at 28% in 2018, the highest figure ever recorded in that age range since the survey first began asking about sexual frequency in the late eighties (N = 2,818). From 1989 through 2012, the under-30 incel percentage remained steady, averaging 13%*. Then in 2014 it shot up to a new high of 21%, notched up again to 22% in 2016, and then as mentioned hit another new all-time high in 2018 at 28%.

      It looks like the rise of the incel corresponds with the onset of The Great Awokening.

      Back in the halcyon days of the early 2000s, I remember leftists warning the US was on the verge of becoming a theocracy. I dismissed them as deluded hysterics at the time but it turns out I was very, very wrong.

      To my Mennonite and Muslim brothers, I feel riper for conversion than at any other time in my life up to this point.

      * It looks like there was a transcription error in the 2012 data. It shows an incel rate of 3% which is by far the lowest year on record, the next lowest being 10% in 1996. This exceptionally low figure makes for a confusing graphical representation of the data which is why I elected not to present one here. I could throw the 2012 figure out but since I can’t be sure it was a transcription error as opposed to extreme noise, I don’t want it to look like the data is being cherry-picked, either.

      GSS variables used: SEXFREQ, SEX(1), AGE(18-29), YEAR

       
      • Category: Culture/Society • Tags: GSS, Love and Marriage, Sex 
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      1. It would be interesting if we could measure “male thirst”

        • Replies: @Disordered Deacon
        i agree. i think the late 90s and early 00s had simultaneous increases of both male thirst and female thotness. the increase of internet (aka porn), sexualized pop stars (Britney and Madonna making out, Janet Jackson nipplegate), trash tv shows like survivor and big brother and eventually all the way to the bachelor/ette and jersey shore to show us how to date. hard rock dying in popularity and getting dumber or emo, while white girls start getting tramp stamps and dancing to black music (usher's yeah with lil jon - hey at least he flew Dixie). more importantly white boys learned "manhood" from the aforementioned media or grand theft auto san andreas (or the lack thereof from the Disney Channel or the stranger types of anime - 90s and 00s tv is a topic on its own), and got their humor from chapelle, comedy central, adult swim. blogs and forums were freer but also smaller, only true nerds were there. as can be told from the stats, incels were still then in manageable numbers, if concerning - because, they were not becoming the usual and relatively quieter monks and nuns, but rather cat people and internet hounds...

        when obama came, he was propelled partly by the gen x that thought the time had come to loosen everything up; so when the teens above became young adults, the artsy ones went full hipster and occupy, the preppy ones went full globalist career ahead, the ghetto ones went full ghetto, and even the rightwing ones went more radical (the Trumpian youth wing was started in those dark years). among these developments, internet dating came along as well as social media, and as the stats prove, there was a natural drop in incelness as people danced to party rock anthem, started going to festivals, having stronger drugs, and having sex earlier, faster, and harder. i sincerely believe 2012's 3% figure is accurate, and this in spite of my personal experience lol. but do remember okcupid, pof were in apogee, tinder just had started, and facebook and twitter were not yet populated by everyone and their personal spy. it was the zenith of edm culture, and drake had just appeared.

        and then, from 2013 onward... and then what, you may ask? i think that the excessive access to everything made everyone weary. excessive texting/thirst from men, excessive flaunting and teasing from women, excessive access to hardcore porn and sexualized media, all in your hands as Steve Jobs wanted. 50 shades was on theaters, and that's just the rim of the proverbial hole lol. add metoo dramas and sobbing whether real or not, pussyhat influence (and that of its reverse, nerdy male celibates), and increasing money issues for both after graduating college (as well as money requirements from ladies). in the real world, loud clubs not having the appeal that they used to if flirting becomes weary and grinding is discouraged, regular date activities seeming increasingly boring as media sells you ever increasing packages of happiness (example, how off the charts weddings' cost is now), workplaces becoming evermore sterile, drugs becoming stronger and more available so you do not want to leave the house as often (while apps increasingly deliver, not to worry).

        a special mention has to be made to the lgbt propaganda group that took men that were already weak boys and teens (from all the 90s couch potatoing and later drugs) and made it acceptable to, first, become metrosexuals and/or other caricatures when dating and dancing. then normalized not playing sports or doing housework or handiwork (relatedly, the learn to code mantra appeared). up til now, men were boyishly fine with this. then they normalized not only coed spaces more than before (think boy scouts) but mixed in the lgbt, and thus the females eventually went over their heads as they increased in numbers and cliques; with their excessive natural desire to compete for the men being groomed by the cat ladies and the increasing grrlpower circles in academia and elsewhere into competing against the men (when obama, michelle of course, started putting up the ads of "tell her she is smart too" - but this went back decades, as a kid i remember the powerpuff girls and other seemingly innocent shows that then went astray or had hidden messages of decadence, what with them being created by post modern art students). thus in this spirit of poisonous competition, groomed by a few decades of grrlpower and toxic masculinity ideas, and stewed by the terrible dating market experiences, these now/new young women tell these men to troll them not only that a gay is as manly or even more decent than him, but also that trans is beautiful and so is fat, and that polyamory and interracial swinging and being cool wine aunts and gamer uncles is fine.

        and these women say that if these men put up with all of this, maybe they will have sex... but also they have to fulfill the rest of the laundry list, and even then risk losing it all to a cool jerk/foreigner that treats her worse. rinse and repeat, it will be fine. meanwhile the men want a bad chick pornstar that also does not nag yet somehow has kids, yet somehow works so you don't have to work as hard... and yet you do. not to mention, after the honeymoon period, she is too weary and tired of the nice guy attitude for the pornstar sex anyway, and even more so if she does not get the grrlpower dream career and high powered hubby she wanted. but do not worry, buy her more stuff next anniversary and she will be fine and may even pop a kid before tying off the tubes. and you will get a brand new lease, a new gaming console or another consumerist habit, and all will be fine.

        or, separate, and allow consenting adults to choose to be alone. and then remain alone. but not to worry, being alone is fine, do not let those heteronormatives have their say.

        yes. all fine. and sterile, as can be seen in the stats.

        true, this generation remembers 9/11, sent thousands to those awful sandpits even without knowing why (some now were babies the day the towers fell), and now suffers the student debt if employed/graduated at all, and much loneliness and other issues. and who knows the margin of error of that poll. but, that does not mean we cannot do anything to change this, instead of browsing endlessly what to watch on netflix. i hope we do change. perhaps reinstalling the Pauline concept of male headship would be a good start.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Browser history would probably get you most of the way there!
      2. I dismissed them as deluded hysterics at the time but it turns out I was very, very wrong.

        https://youtube.com/watch?v=IYEyv5a_3LM

        By the way, I oppose theocracy – clerics should NOT be running governments. That’s not their job; they should be serving in more an advisory and quasi-legislative-judicial capacity (preferably completely free from government institutions or influence – especially with regards to money).

        To my Mennonite and Muslim brothers, I feel riper for conversion than at any other time in my life up to this point.

        If that’s the choice, go Muzzie. I have a deep respect for Mennonites for their adherence to their convictions, but if we are the two left standing…well, let’s just say that; 1) they literally are the platinum-standard model dhimmi citizens and 2) jizyah can be paid in kind (produce, farm animals, etc. at least for Hanafis – though wine, pigs and dead animals are NOT accepted) in lieu of military service.

        They also supply a large amount of the halal meat in the Midwest; they are the go to people because of their high ethical standards in treatment of animals.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @216

        By the way, I oppose theocracy – clerics should NOT be running governments. That’s not their job; they should be serving in more an advisory and quasi-legislative-judicial capacity (preferably completely free from government institutions or influence – especially with regards to money).
         
        While sympathetic, I recall a quick rebuttal in only two words: Richelieu and Mazarin. The West has soured on advisory clerics ever since.
        , @Disordered Deacon
        or...
        we can revive the Templars for armed multinational Christian defensive purposes.
        and keep our bacon and wine.
        worse comes to worse, not necessarily calling for another Constantine or Charlemagne either, just more Jan Sobieskis.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        This new secular religion seems far worse than either of them.
      3. It’s best always to make a graph. You can put an asterisk on the data point that’s troubling. But it’s nice to visualize the data, including the noise. It gives you a feel for the changes. Also, survey data presenting averages should come with sample uncertainties (~1/sqrt (N)). Your graphs should present error bars to show the sample error, again to give the viewer an understanding of the significance of the sample. Just a thought.

        • Agree: Audacious Epigone
      4. 216 says:
        @Talha

        I dismissed them as deluded hysterics at the time but it turns out I was very, very wrong.
         
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=IYEyv5a_3LM

        By the way, I oppose theocracy - clerics should NOT be running governments. That’s not their job; they should be serving in more an advisory and quasi-legislative-judicial capacity (preferably completely free from government institutions or influence - especially with regards to money).

        To my Mennonite and Muslim brothers, I feel riper for conversion than at any other time in my life up to this point.
         
        If that’s the choice, go Muzzie. I have a deep respect for Mennonites for their adherence to their convictions, but if we are the two left standing...well, let’s just say that; 1) they literally are the platinum-standard model dhimmi citizens and 2) jizyah can be paid in kind (produce, farm animals, etc. at least for Hanafis - though wine, pigs and dead animals are NOT accepted) in lieu of military service.

        They also supply a large amount of the halal meat in the Midwest; they are the go to people because of their high ethical standards in treatment of animals.

        Peace.

        By the way, I oppose theocracy – clerics should NOT be running governments. That’s not their job; they should be serving in more an advisory and quasi-legislative-judicial capacity (preferably completely free from government institutions or influence – especially with regards to money).

        While sympathetic, I recall a quick rebuttal in only two words: Richelieu and Mazarin. The West has soured on advisory clerics ever since.

        • Replies: @Talha
        Different religion, different clerics. If I recall, Mazarin (don’t know enough about the other person) was given some royal title and put in charge of a heck of a lot of government policy; this is not at all what I’m talking about. This is exactly what should be avoided, namely putting clerics in charge of governmental responsibilities.

        This probably explains the Sunni view better than most; getting exiled, imprisoned, tortured or even killed by the ruling authorities was honestly a right of passage for many of our most well-known scholars:
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=zwMXvSBNbU4

        The reason why many Muslims love our ulema is because of how closely they have held the interests of the public in mind and the fact that they live very down-to-earth, common lives without fanfare. This is one of the top scholars of the Hanafi school in the entire world on a recent trip to Jordan, resting on the floor of a mosque at the age of near-80:
        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEUN9D3XgAE6G8G.jpg

        The ones that associate with governments and cozy up to rulers and get nice fat bonuses for giving the governments fatwas that they want...those guys are usually derisively called “scholars for dollars”.

        Peace.
        , @Disordered Deacon
        Just give back the Pope some power, he would rein in the Richelieus as well, so long the Caesars stay in their lane.
        Well, maybe not this Pope. Where is Urban the 2nd when you need him...
        Say whatever of this larpy traditionalist idea, but even the priests are less sterile than the UN lol.
      5. Roasties’ Revenge?

        https://tribune.com.pk/story/1993160/4-single-women-happier-lives-says-study/

        “Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they’re asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: really miserable,” Dolan said on the sidelines of the Hay Festival in Wales on Sunday.

        “We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time but I am going to do a massive disservice to that science and just say: If you’re a man, you should probably get married but if you’re a woman, don’t bother.”

        Married men take fewer risks and “calm down” and therefore are healthier than their single counterparts, whereas women did not see the same benefits. Women’s health was mainly unaffected by marriage, but middle-aged married women reported more mental and physical problems than single ones.

        “You take less risks, you earn more money at work and you live a little longer. She, on the other hand, has to put up with that and she dies sooner than if she never married. The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children,” Dolan stated.

        • Replies: @Anonymous
        This has been debunked, the author (Dolan) misunderstood the terminology and got dragged in the media for it:

        https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/6/4/18650969/married-women-miserable-fake-paul-dolan-happiness
        , @Talha

        The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children
         
        Motherhood requires sacrifice and hard work and giving of yourself, news at eleven.

        Peace.
        , @Achmed E. Newman
        I see a real problem with this Dolan's premise that health in the later years and longevity are the main portions of happiness in men to begin with. For women, not taking risks is fine and maybe makes them happier, but not for men. Some men don't want to calm down. I hope that's OK with Paul Dolan (I was surprised it was a he).

        The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children,” Dolan stated.
         
        Rightttt... do you have to ask that when there are no children in the room?
        , @Disordered Deacon
        But what if the married man is just lying and just calms down so wife is less miserable than normal, or so he can still perform as breadwinner as he usually does for the family? What if the nonmarried woman lies to make herself seem cooler for the study person when she is truly poorer as stats say? The first paragraph opens by saying both lie to keep up appearances. so why not trust it?
        There is more to just picking up data and gluing it on tables.
        , @Audacious Epigone, @simple_pseudonymic_handle
        This is a sample size of less than 20 but the only times people I have hardly known have broken down in tears and told me they hated their life they were all women in their 30's who had no children and were pretty much resigned to it's never going to happen for them.
      6. @216

        By the way, I oppose theocracy – clerics should NOT be running governments. That’s not their job; they should be serving in more an advisory and quasi-legislative-judicial capacity (preferably completely free from government institutions or influence – especially with regards to money).
         
        While sympathetic, I recall a quick rebuttal in only two words: Richelieu and Mazarin. The West has soured on advisory clerics ever since.

        Different religion, different clerics. If I recall, Mazarin (don’t know enough about the other person) was given some royal title and put in charge of a heck of a lot of government policy; this is not at all what I’m talking about. This is exactly what should be avoided, namely putting clerics in charge of governmental responsibilities.

        This probably explains the Sunni view better than most; getting exiled, imprisoned, tortured or even killed by the ruling authorities was honestly a right of passage for many of our most well-known scholars:
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=zwMXvSBNbU4

        The reason why many Muslims love our ulema is because of how closely they have held the interests of the public in mind and the fact that they live very down-to-earth, common lives without fanfare. This is one of the top scholars of the Hanafi school in the entire world on a recent trip to Jordan, resting on the floor of a mosque at the age of near-80:
        The ones that associate with governments and cozy up to rulers and get nice fat bonuses for giving the governments fatwas that they want…those guys are usually derisively called “scholars for dollars”.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @Talha
        Sorry, he’s closer to 75 - my mistake, but I think you get the point.
        , @Disordered Deacon
        technically that is how the medieval model worked. the two swords and all that. problem is, the cephalization creeps in. the rich nobles eventually made one son the new duke, the other the new bishop. of course, to a degree, high pedigree works. but eventually in enough centuries, you get the scholars for oil dollars, just like the pastors for Israel, the priests for open borders, or even the good old simony. and when decay among this and other sectors of the elite happens enough, if Saint Spengler is right, new prophets arise - whether false or true, it cannot be denied, there are a lot now. freedom of speech, and freedom of thought, and of ideology. tons of ideology, sterile ideology...

        and yet...
        and yet, the stats prove the children of God inherit the earth. as seen above.
        we just have to figure out how to keep it that way for most, in this age of man. so we even have to figure out what kind of God, and how do we reach it. regardless of our mutually exclusive religious views, i think we might agree that the West is really Christendom off its tracks, and it cannot help but act it out unconsciously. and i naturally (that is, from birth, thus biased lol) feel that true honor is due to the original Christian church now in Rome. but how can even the 19th century Protestant ideal of small community Christianity be reached, when from above and below the whole body of Christendom is fading away, crumbling up even the most basic distinguishing (and fertile) group practices, rift by political and ethnic divisions and mashups, taken over by globalist shepherds of both left and right, as they desperately try to stay afloat selling out to modernity? therefore, drastic measures should be had, a regroup around the Barque of Peter if you will. lots will happen, we may not have a recognizable faith in a couple decades (either wholly wordly or wholly in Latin). but a fiery catacombs period may be inevitable. maybe even heightened sectarian disputes. and with that, what else may come...
        we can only keep the lamps lit.

        meanwhile, hope God grants you peace.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Great phrase, "scholars for dollars". Thanks.
      7. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:
        @Thulean Friend
        Roasties' Revenge?

        https://tribune.com.pk/story/1993160/4-single-women-happier-lives-says-study/

        “Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they’re asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: really miserable,” Dolan said on the sidelines of the Hay Festival in Wales on Sunday.

        “We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time but I am going to do a massive disservice to that science and just say: If you’re a man, you should probably get married but if you’re a woman, don’t bother.”

        Married men take fewer risks and “calm down” and therefore are healthier than their single counterparts, whereas women did not see the same benefits. Women’s health was mainly unaffected by marriage, but middle-aged married women reported more mental and physical problems than single ones.

        “You take less risks, you earn more money at work and you live a little longer. She, on the other hand, has to put up with that and she dies sooner than if she never married. The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children,” Dolan stated.
         

        This has been debunked, the author (Dolan) misunderstood the terminology and got dragged in the media for it:

        https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/6/4/18650969/married-women-miserable-fake-paul-dolan-happiness

        • Agree: Thulean Friend
      8. @Talha
        Different religion, different clerics. If I recall, Mazarin (don’t know enough about the other person) was given some royal title and put in charge of a heck of a lot of government policy; this is not at all what I’m talking about. This is exactly what should be avoided, namely putting clerics in charge of governmental responsibilities.

        This probably explains the Sunni view better than most; getting exiled, imprisoned, tortured or even killed by the ruling authorities was honestly a right of passage for many of our most well-known scholars:
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=zwMXvSBNbU4

        The reason why many Muslims love our ulema is because of how closely they have held the interests of the public in mind and the fact that they live very down-to-earth, common lives without fanfare. This is one of the top scholars of the Hanafi school in the entire world on a recent trip to Jordan, resting on the floor of a mosque at the age of near-80:
        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEUN9D3XgAE6G8G.jpg

        The ones that associate with governments and cozy up to rulers and get nice fat bonuses for giving the governments fatwas that they want...those guys are usually derisively called “scholars for dollars”.

        Peace.

        Sorry, he’s closer to 75 – my mistake, but I think you get the point.

      9. @Thulean Friend
        Roasties' Revenge?

        https://tribune.com.pk/story/1993160/4-single-women-happier-lives-says-study/

        “Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they’re asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: really miserable,” Dolan said on the sidelines of the Hay Festival in Wales on Sunday.

        “We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time but I am going to do a massive disservice to that science and just say: If you’re a man, you should probably get married but if you’re a woman, don’t bother.”

        Married men take fewer risks and “calm down” and therefore are healthier than their single counterparts, whereas women did not see the same benefits. Women’s health was mainly unaffected by marriage, but middle-aged married women reported more mental and physical problems than single ones.

        “You take less risks, you earn more money at work and you live a little longer. She, on the other hand, has to put up with that and she dies sooner than if she never married. The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children,” Dolan stated.
         

        The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children

        Motherhood requires sacrifice and hard work and giving of yourself, news at eleven.

        Peace.

        • LOL: Rosie
        • Replies: @Lo
        These studies have an agenda, convincing women it is a good idea to delay marriage to slow down the population growth. Reality is the opposite.
        , @Dumbo
        Yes. The issue is not about being "happy" or not, personal "happiness" may never be achieved one way or another, whatever you do ("marry, you will regret it, don't marry, you will regret it" - Kierkegaard). Maternity requires sacrifice and sometimes pain, but it is something essential.

        I am reminded now of a scene of the film "Nostalgia" by Tarkovsky, perhaps not one of his best movies, but anyway, in this scene a childless single woman in her thirties goes to a Church, the priest tells her that in his view "women are made to have children and raise them, with patience and sacrifice. I know, you want to be happy, but there are more important things." She doesn't like the answer.
      10. @Thulean Friend
        Roasties' Revenge?

        https://tribune.com.pk/story/1993160/4-single-women-happier-lives-says-study/

        “Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they’re asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: really miserable,” Dolan said on the sidelines of the Hay Festival in Wales on Sunday.

        “We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time but I am going to do a massive disservice to that science and just say: If you’re a man, you should probably get married but if you’re a woman, don’t bother.”

        Married men take fewer risks and “calm down” and therefore are healthier than their single counterparts, whereas women did not see the same benefits. Women’s health was mainly unaffected by marriage, but middle-aged married women reported more mental and physical problems than single ones.

        “You take less risks, you earn more money at work and you live a little longer. She, on the other hand, has to put up with that and she dies sooner than if she never married. The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children,” Dolan stated.
         

        I see a real problem with this Dolan’s premise that health in the later years and longevity are the main portions of happiness in men to begin with. For women, not taking risks is fine and maybe makes them happier, but not for men. Some men don’t want to calm down. I hope that’s OK with Paul Dolan (I was surprised it was a he).

        The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children,” Dolan stated.

        Rightttt… do you have to ask that when there are no children in the room?

      11. The leftists of the Bush years that stupidity worried about a theocracy were speaking of Christianity, an idea that was retarded then as much as it is now. They would never complain about or protest against an encroaching Moslem theocracy for the simple reason of being worried about getting their asses kicked.

      12. @216

        By the way, I oppose theocracy – clerics should NOT be running governments. That’s not their job; they should be serving in more an advisory and quasi-legislative-judicial capacity (preferably completely free from government institutions or influence – especially with regards to money).
         
        While sympathetic, I recall a quick rebuttal in only two words: Richelieu and Mazarin. The West has soured on advisory clerics ever since.

        Just give back the Pope some power, he would rein in the Richelieus as well, so long the Caesars stay in their lane.
        Well, maybe not this Pope. Where is Urban the 2nd when you need him…
        Say whatever of this larpy traditionalist idea, but even the priests are less sterile than the UN lol.

      13. As a man who was an extreme incel in the 90s, I think there is some falseness in the numbers here. I think people were more willing to lie about virginity in the 80s and 90s period, simply because everyone believed that everyone was having casual sex at the time and so to admit otherwise would be to self-identity as a freak. For whatever reason, incels now know they’re not alone and are admitting their sexlessness to surveys. But the whole phenomenon actually began as soon as feminism became institutionalized in the 70s.

        • Replies: @L Woods
        While I'm sure you're correct about underreporting, I'm pretty sure the phenomenon remains so today and for the same reasons. In fact, I'd say incels are more stigmatized (even demonized) than ever now that they're somewhat out of the shadows.

        Moreover, like unemployment, these figures fail to capture the equivalent of underemployment -- the extent to which men are forced to date far down or go to ridiculous contrivances to eke out anything at all.

        Generally the party line is still basically that we're not even allowed to think of this as a problem -- to do so evokes the boilerplate panoply of posturing, humblebrag, feminist hysteria etc that accompanies any mention of the issue (an expression of the particular brand of moral(ist) outrage reserved for low status males who exhibit signs of not knowing their place). Somehow, The Pay Gap is the defining injustice of our times, but this sort of gross inequity is just fine (and you will think so or else).
      14. @Talha
        Different religion, different clerics. If I recall, Mazarin (don’t know enough about the other person) was given some royal title and put in charge of a heck of a lot of government policy; this is not at all what I’m talking about. This is exactly what should be avoided, namely putting clerics in charge of governmental responsibilities.

        This probably explains the Sunni view better than most; getting exiled, imprisoned, tortured or even killed by the ruling authorities was honestly a right of passage for many of our most well-known scholars:
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=zwMXvSBNbU4

        The reason why many Muslims love our ulema is because of how closely they have held the interests of the public in mind and the fact that they live very down-to-earth, common lives without fanfare. This is one of the top scholars of the Hanafi school in the entire world on a recent trip to Jordan, resting on the floor of a mosque at the age of near-80:
        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEUN9D3XgAE6G8G.jpg

        The ones that associate with governments and cozy up to rulers and get nice fat bonuses for giving the governments fatwas that they want...those guys are usually derisively called “scholars for dollars”.

        Peace.

        technically that is how the medieval model worked. the two swords and all that. problem is, the cephalization creeps in. the rich nobles eventually made one son the new duke, the other the new bishop. of course, to a degree, high pedigree works. but eventually in enough centuries, you get the scholars for oil dollars, just like the pastors for Israel, the priests for open borders, or even the good old simony. and when decay among this and other sectors of the elite happens enough, if Saint Spengler is right, new prophets arise – whether false or true, it cannot be denied, there are a lot now. freedom of speech, and freedom of thought, and of ideology. tons of ideology, sterile ideology…

        and yet…
        and yet, the stats prove the children of God inherit the earth. as seen above.
        we just have to figure out how to keep it that way for most, in this age of man. so we even have to figure out what kind of God, and how do we reach it. regardless of our mutually exclusive religious views, i think we might agree that the West is really Christendom off its tracks, and it cannot help but act it out unconsciously. and i naturally (that is, from birth, thus biased lol) feel that true honor is due to the original Christian church now in Rome. but how can even the 19th century Protestant ideal of small community Christianity be reached, when from above and below the whole body of Christendom is fading away, crumbling up even the most basic distinguishing (and fertile) group practices, rift by political and ethnic divisions and mashups, taken over by globalist shepherds of both left and right, as they desperately try to stay afloat selling out to modernity? therefore, drastic measures should be had, a regroup around the Barque of Peter if you will. lots will happen, we may not have a recognizable faith in a couple decades (either wholly wordly or wholly in Latin). but a fiery catacombs period may be inevitable. maybe even heightened sectarian disputes. and with that, what else may come…
        we can only keep the lamps lit.

        meanwhile, hope God grants you peace.

        • Replies: @Talha

        i think we might agree that the West is really Christendom off its tracks
         
        Agreed.

        A lot of your concerns are similar to what Rod Dreher writes about in this book (might be worth a read coming from your background):
        https://www.amazon.com/Benedict-Option-Strategy-Christians-Post-Christian/dp/0735213291

        hope God grants you peace.
         
        To you and your family as well.

        Peace.
      15. @Talha

        I dismissed them as deluded hysterics at the time but it turns out I was very, very wrong.
         
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=IYEyv5a_3LM

        By the way, I oppose theocracy - clerics should NOT be running governments. That’s not their job; they should be serving in more an advisory and quasi-legislative-judicial capacity (preferably completely free from government institutions or influence - especially with regards to money).

        To my Mennonite and Muslim brothers, I feel riper for conversion than at any other time in my life up to this point.
         
        If that’s the choice, go Muzzie. I have a deep respect for Mennonites for their adherence to their convictions, but if we are the two left standing...well, let’s just say that; 1) they literally are the platinum-standard model dhimmi citizens and 2) jizyah can be paid in kind (produce, farm animals, etc. at least for Hanafis - though wine, pigs and dead animals are NOT accepted) in lieu of military service.

        They also supply a large amount of the halal meat in the Midwest; they are the go to people because of their high ethical standards in treatment of animals.

        Peace.

        or…
        we can revive the Templars for armed multinational Christian defensive purposes.
        and keep our bacon and wine.
        worse comes to worse, not necessarily calling for another Constantine or Charlemagne either, just more Jan Sobieskis.

        • Replies: @Talha
        Mennonites are the furthest thing from Templars you can find, which is why I mentioned if that was the only other option. If we are honest, a reconstituted Templar cadre would go far more postal on the target-rich environment of atheist apostates/heathens. The Templars actually negotiated terms and treaties with Muslim polities. Muslims may have theological differences, but we don’t do this kind of comedy about the Son of Mary (pbuh):
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=B6zorQM2xOM

        Priorities...

        keep our bacon and wine.
         
        Those are completely protected rights for non-Muslim minorities and have been for centuries. Even a state like Pakistan where Christians often get the short end of the stick, these are protected rights via the constitution. Look up the Murree Brewery.

        They are simply not acceptable for jizyah payment in lieu of performing military services for males. Women and kids don’t have to worry about this.

        Peace.
      16. @Thulean Friend
        Roasties' Revenge?

        https://tribune.com.pk/story/1993160/4-single-women-happier-lives-says-study/

        “Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they’re asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: really miserable,” Dolan said on the sidelines of the Hay Festival in Wales on Sunday.

        “We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time but I am going to do a massive disservice to that science and just say: If you’re a man, you should probably get married but if you’re a woman, don’t bother.”

        Married men take fewer risks and “calm down” and therefore are healthier than their single counterparts, whereas women did not see the same benefits. Women’s health was mainly unaffected by marriage, but middle-aged married women reported more mental and physical problems than single ones.

        “You take less risks, you earn more money at work and you live a little longer. She, on the other hand, has to put up with that and she dies sooner than if she never married. The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children,” Dolan stated.
         

        But what if the married man is just lying and just calms down so wife is less miserable than normal, or so he can still perform as breadwinner as he usually does for the family? What if the nonmarried woman lies to make herself seem cooler for the study person when she is truly poorer as stats say? The first paragraph opens by saying both lie to keep up appearances. so why not trust it?
        There is more to just picking up data and gluing it on tables.

      17. @Disordered Deacon
        or...
        we can revive the Templars for armed multinational Christian defensive purposes.
        and keep our bacon and wine.
        worse comes to worse, not necessarily calling for another Constantine or Charlemagne either, just more Jan Sobieskis.

        Mennonites are the furthest thing from Templars you can find, which is why I mentioned if that was the only other option. If we are honest, a reconstituted Templar cadre would go far more postal on the target-rich environment of atheist apostates/heathens. The Templars actually negotiated terms and treaties with Muslim polities. Muslims may have theological differences, but we don’t do this kind of comedy about the Son of Mary (pbuh):
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=B6zorQM2xOM

        Priorities…

        keep our bacon and wine.

        Those are completely protected rights for non-Muslim minorities and have been for centuries. Even a state like Pakistan where Christians often get the short end of the stick, these are protected rights via the constitution. Look up the Murree Brewery.

        They are simply not acceptable for jizyah payment in lieu of performing military services for males. Women and kids don’t have to worry about this.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @Disordered Deacon
        i understand, as jizyah we have some rights.

        some.

        you might understand the apprehension, then. even if we keep our bacon and wine.
        just like i understand the mutual hate for Maher we seem to happily share.

        the Templars usually negotiated when needed, however. meaning, there had been too much bloodshed already. nevertheless you get my point. i guess AE picked Mennonite because they seem like the vaunted fertility ideal for non-Catholic traditionalists - and yes, that seems an oxymoron to me too.
        , @SunBakedSuburb
        There has been some interesting speculation regarding the Templar association with the Sufis and how this experience with Sufism led them into Gnostic beliefs. Thus their persecution by the Church. And Gnosticism is allegedly a Cabalistic subversion. Canadian Muslim writer David Livingstone has made this connection, as have others.
        , @Cloudbuster
        I'll die before I bow down to a Muslim government.
        , @Mr. Rational
        Lan astaslem, scumbag.

        Now go back to the shithole your parents escaped from, and take your nasty religion with you.  Such a pity that they refused to recognize what they were fleeing from, and failed to educate you properly.  You will pay the price.  So be it.
        , @The Wild Geese Howard
        Nice muruna.

        I know better since I've experienced a roomful of Muslims openly mocking the Holy Trinity.
      18. @Disordered Deacon
        technically that is how the medieval model worked. the two swords and all that. problem is, the cephalization creeps in. the rich nobles eventually made one son the new duke, the other the new bishop. of course, to a degree, high pedigree works. but eventually in enough centuries, you get the scholars for oil dollars, just like the pastors for Israel, the priests for open borders, or even the good old simony. and when decay among this and other sectors of the elite happens enough, if Saint Spengler is right, new prophets arise - whether false or true, it cannot be denied, there are a lot now. freedom of speech, and freedom of thought, and of ideology. tons of ideology, sterile ideology...

        and yet...
        and yet, the stats prove the children of God inherit the earth. as seen above.
        we just have to figure out how to keep it that way for most, in this age of man. so we even have to figure out what kind of God, and how do we reach it. regardless of our mutually exclusive religious views, i think we might agree that the West is really Christendom off its tracks, and it cannot help but act it out unconsciously. and i naturally (that is, from birth, thus biased lol) feel that true honor is due to the original Christian church now in Rome. but how can even the 19th century Protestant ideal of small community Christianity be reached, when from above and below the whole body of Christendom is fading away, crumbling up even the most basic distinguishing (and fertile) group practices, rift by political and ethnic divisions and mashups, taken over by globalist shepherds of both left and right, as they desperately try to stay afloat selling out to modernity? therefore, drastic measures should be had, a regroup around the Barque of Peter if you will. lots will happen, we may not have a recognizable faith in a couple decades (either wholly wordly or wholly in Latin). but a fiery catacombs period may be inevitable. maybe even heightened sectarian disputes. and with that, what else may come...
        we can only keep the lamps lit.

        meanwhile, hope God grants you peace.

        i think we might agree that the West is really Christendom off its tracks

        Agreed.

        A lot of your concerns are similar to what Rod Dreher writes about in this book (might be worth a read coming from your background):

        hope God grants you peace.

        To you and your family as well.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @Disordered Deacon
        yes and no
        on one hand, some degree of monastic values might be needed.
        on the other, monks do take orders and vows different than laity. so barring creation of coed orders (always ended in trouble), what is needed is really a better laity. from there come the priests. and this will not be reached by aping whatever the pop pastors do, those live and die every tour and revival cycle. some people call for the restoration of Latin, to a degree i agree, although more beautiful vernacular liturgies should be made as well. also, it would help to stop giving money to lawyers for ephebophile and homo clergy, and perhaps returning it to services for the parishioners as well as better liturgies, instead of having to import followers. but that is another story...
      19. @Talha

        The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children
         
        Motherhood requires sacrifice and hard work and giving of yourself, news at eleven.

        Peace.

        These studies have an agenda, convincing women it is a good idea to delay marriage to slow down the population growth. Reality is the opposite.

        • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
        But what's better than cubicle work, Netflix, and box wine? Nothing--so let's do it for the next sixty years!
      20. Percentage of incels in the population: 0%

        There is no such thing as an incel, but only men who won’t join a club that will have them as a member.

        • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
        • Replies: @Disordered Deacon
        "no, it's your fault. because."

        or if more childish in the mind:
        "serves you right, icky boys!"
        , @Dumbo
        There are many reasons why people won't have sex. I think there were always people who for some reason or other were left out of the sexual market. However, with feminism and female independence this became a much worse issue. As someone else said here, now that women have financial independence and even support from the State if they are single moms, they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men.

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem.

        Now it is true that there are some "incels" who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don't really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there's not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages.

        I've read an article about some Japanese dude who "married" a cartoon character because he couldn't get the attention of any woman. And I've read that in Japan now 1 out of 4 men will never have sex (or something to that effect).

        But in Japan until the fifties marriages arranged or semi-arranged by parents were the norm (just watch any Ozu movie), and it worked for them. So maybe they should go back to arranged marriages.

        As for the West, it is more difficult for this to happen, our treatment of women has always been more free, despite what women say about the "patriarchy". I've heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.
        , @YetAnotherAnon
        There are plenty of male incels. Some are "a bit backward" and live at home with their mums, others are ultra-bright, well-paid jobs but incurably nerdish. Such chaps would be easy prey for a plain girl, but you certainly couldn't expect "sexy sons" from such a union, and the girl would have to make all the running.

        I worked with such a guy for ten years - bright chap - in that time his female counterpart (i.e. someone with zero experience and zero ability to flirt or 'chat up') found a husband and had a baby. His interactions with the opposite sex were strictly work related.

        But then being a shy, tongue-tied girl is not unattractive to men.
      21. incels = shrinking middle class

        when you have a shrinking middle class and a population who remember that middle class life as “normal” then women will either
        – compete for the shrinking number of men who can provide that life
        – turn to prostitution and service many men to make a living (made a lot easier by internet thottery)
        – or drop out of the competition entirely (blue hairs).

        solution: marines -> Wall St.

        • Replies: @Disordered Deacon
        agree to a degree.
        just that redistribution by itself solves nothing, in fact it is worse as pure economics.
        without addressing social concerns regarding ethnicity and men-women relationships, the dynamics might remain the same and lead to a similar spot later down the road.
        , @Anonymous
        Yes, the incel thing tracks the recent decline in marriage and fertility, which are at historic lows.

        Relative status and conditions are more of a factor than the objective, material conditions of historic middle class life. An average man today can provide a housewife with better and more material comforts and amenities than in the past, but the average man's relative status is much lower today because of sexual egalitarianism and feminism. Women have economic independence now and no longer have to depend on individual men as providers, and thus men's higher social status as providers, which all men, including poor working class men, enjoyed above women no longer exists. That's the ultimate reason. Remember, women were marrying regular men and popping out babies when all those men could provide were wooden cabins without indoor plumbing and electricity.

        You are right about the rise of prostitution, both actual and de facto. It has been significantly enabled by the rise of social media over the past decade, and mirrors The Great Awokening, which also seems to have been enabled by social media. Ordinary young women use social media to engage in prostitution and seek out "sugar daddies", or they use it to advertise themselves and seek out higher status men rather than settle for long term relationships with regular men in real life local networks. They're not doing it for a middle class lifestyle, though. They're doing it because the relative status of regular men has declined so much.
        , @L Woods
        This is widely assumed, but I just don't see in every day life that women are gravitating towards middle class providers (at least while they're still in their prime reproductive years). Not a week goes by in my Virginia exurb where I don't see an attractive teenaged/early twenties girl with an aspiring rapper or ethnically ambiguous chad in tow.
      22. @216
        It would be interesting if we could measure "male thirst"

        i agree. i think the late 90s and early 00s had simultaneous increases of both male thirst and female thotness. the increase of internet (aka porn), sexualized pop stars (Britney and Madonna making out, Janet Jackson nipplegate), trash tv shows like survivor and big brother and eventually all the way to the bachelor/ette and jersey shore to show us how to date. hard rock dying in popularity and getting dumber or emo, while white girls start getting tramp stamps and dancing to black music (usher’s yeah with lil jon – hey at least he flew Dixie). more importantly white boys learned “manhood” from the aforementioned media or grand theft auto san andreas (or the lack thereof from the Disney Channel or the stranger types of anime – 90s and 00s tv is a topic on its own), and got their humor from chapelle, comedy central, adult swim. blogs and forums were freer but also smaller, only true nerds were there. as can be told from the stats, incels were still then in manageable numbers, if concerning – because, they were not becoming the usual and relatively quieter monks and nuns, but rather cat people and internet hounds…

        when obama came, he was propelled partly by the gen x that thought the time had come to loosen everything up; so when the teens above became young adults, the artsy ones went full hipster and occupy, the preppy ones went full globalist career ahead, the ghetto ones went full ghetto, and even the rightwing ones went more radical (the Trumpian youth wing was started in those dark years). among these developments, internet dating came along as well as social media, and as the stats prove, there was a natural drop in incelness as people danced to party rock anthem, started going to festivals, having stronger drugs, and having sex earlier, faster, and harder. i sincerely believe 2012’s 3% figure is accurate, and this in spite of my personal experience lol. but do remember okcupid, pof were in apogee, tinder just had started, and facebook and twitter were not yet populated by everyone and their personal spy. it was the zenith of edm culture, and drake had just appeared.

        and then, from 2013 onward… and then what, you may ask? i think that the excessive access to everything made everyone weary. excessive texting/thirst from men, excessive flaunting and teasing from women, excessive access to hardcore porn and sexualized media, all in your hands as Steve Jobs wanted. 50 shades was on theaters, and that’s just the rim of the proverbial hole lol. add metoo dramas and sobbing whether real or not, pussyhat influence (and that of its reverse, nerdy male celibates), and increasing money issues for both after graduating college (as well as money requirements from ladies). in the real world, loud clubs not having the appeal that they used to if flirting becomes weary and grinding is discouraged, regular date activities seeming increasingly boring as media sells you ever increasing packages of happiness (example, how off the charts weddings’ cost is now), workplaces becoming evermore sterile, drugs becoming stronger and more available so you do not want to leave the house as often (while apps increasingly deliver, not to worry).

        a special mention has to be made to the lgbt propaganda group that took men that were already weak boys and teens (from all the 90s couch potatoing and later drugs) and made it acceptable to, first, become metrosexuals and/or other caricatures when dating and dancing. then normalized not playing sports or doing housework or handiwork (relatedly, the learn to code mantra appeared). up til now, men were boyishly fine with this. then they normalized not only coed spaces more than before (think boy scouts) but mixed in the lgbt, and thus the females eventually went over their heads as they increased in numbers and cliques; with their excessive natural desire to compete for the men being groomed by the cat ladies and the increasing grrlpower circles in academia and elsewhere into competing against the men (when obama, michelle of course, started putting up the ads of “tell her she is smart too” – but this went back decades, as a kid i remember the powerpuff girls and other seemingly innocent shows that then went astray or had hidden messages of decadence, what with them being created by post modern art students). thus in this spirit of poisonous competition, groomed by a few decades of grrlpower and toxic masculinity ideas, and stewed by the terrible dating market experiences, these now/new young women tell these men to troll them not only that a gay is as manly or even more decent than him, but also that trans is beautiful and so is fat, and that polyamory and interracial swinging and being cool wine aunts and gamer uncles is fine.

        and these women say that if these men put up with all of this, maybe they will have sex… but also they have to fulfill the rest of the laundry list, and even then risk losing it all to a cool jerk/foreigner that treats her worse. rinse and repeat, it will be fine. meanwhile the men want a bad chick pornstar that also does not nag yet somehow has kids, yet somehow works so you don’t have to work as hard… and yet you do. not to mention, after the honeymoon period, she is too weary and tired of the nice guy attitude for the pornstar sex anyway, and even more so if she does not get the grrlpower dream career and high powered hubby she wanted. but do not worry, buy her more stuff next anniversary and she will be fine and may even pop a kid before tying off the tubes. and you will get a brand new lease, a new gaming console or another consumerist habit, and all will be fine.

        or, separate, and allow consenting adults to choose to be alone. and then remain alone. but not to worry, being alone is fine, do not let those heteronormatives have their say.

        yes. all fine. and sterile, as can be seen in the stats.

        true, this generation remembers 9/11, sent thousands to those awful sandpits even without knowing why (some now were babies the day the towers fell), and now suffers the student debt if employed/graduated at all, and much loneliness and other issues. and who knows the margin of error of that poll. but, that does not mean we cannot do anything to change this, instead of browsing endlessly what to watch on netflix. i hope we do change. perhaps reinstalling the Pauline concept of male headship would be a good start.

        • Replies: @Sam Coulton
        Put down the crack pipe, take a deep breath, and step away from the computer for 30 minutes.
      23. @Talha
        Mennonites are the furthest thing from Templars you can find, which is why I mentioned if that was the only other option. If we are honest, a reconstituted Templar cadre would go far more postal on the target-rich environment of atheist apostates/heathens. The Templars actually negotiated terms and treaties with Muslim polities. Muslims may have theological differences, but we don’t do this kind of comedy about the Son of Mary (pbuh):
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=B6zorQM2xOM

        Priorities...

        keep our bacon and wine.
         
        Those are completely protected rights for non-Muslim minorities and have been for centuries. Even a state like Pakistan where Christians often get the short end of the stick, these are protected rights via the constitution. Look up the Murree Brewery.

        They are simply not acceptable for jizyah payment in lieu of performing military services for males. Women and kids don’t have to worry about this.

        Peace.

        i understand, as jizyah we have some rights.

        some.

        you might understand the apprehension, then. even if we keep our bacon and wine.
        just like i understand the mutual hate for Maher we seem to happily share.

        the Templars usually negotiated when needed, however. meaning, there had been too much bloodshed already. nevertheless you get my point. i guess AE picked Mennonite because they seem like the vaunted fertility ideal for non-Catholic traditionalists – and yes, that seems an oxymoron to me too.

        • Replies: @KenH

        you might understand the apprehension, then. even if we keep our bacon and wine.
         
        Non-Muslims might get to keep their bacon and wine but lose their heads. Not really a good deal. And Muslims can change the terms at will.
        , @Talha

        some.
         
        I would say most. Yes, a non-Muslim citizen never has full-enfranchisement, but if they don’t publicly blaspheme or commit treason or try to marry our women, things should go relatively smoothly. In fact, most Muslim countries have fairly decent legal frameworks for non-Muslim citizens that do not commit crimes. The major problem is actually not what’s on paper, the bigger problem is that we have a very serious rule-of-law issue on our hands and extremists that want to take the law into their own hands. That is where a lot of the abuses occur (honestly they end up beating up on fellow Muslims that don’t agree with them as well). If this kind of phenomenon arises in a Muslim-majority nation in the West, there will be major problems for sure.

        The only political restrictions I endorse in a Muslim polity is to keep non-Muslims out of top, critical government/military positions. I have no problem with them as governors, cabinet positions, bureaucratic heads or even justices for the secular/civil courts.

        you might understand the apprehension, then.
         
        Absolutely, it’s never preferable to have to negotiate the rules from a position of less than even terms.

        Peace.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Indeed. I'd have gone with Mormonism instead, but even they are now struggling to stay above replacement level fertility.
      24. @Talha

        i think we might agree that the West is really Christendom off its tracks
         
        Agreed.

        A lot of your concerns are similar to what Rod Dreher writes about in this book (might be worth a read coming from your background):
        https://www.amazon.com/Benedict-Option-Strategy-Christians-Post-Christian/dp/0735213291

        hope God grants you peace.
         
        To you and your family as well.

        Peace.

        yes and no
        on one hand, some degree of monastic values might be needed.
        on the other, monks do take orders and vows different than laity. so barring creation of coed orders (always ended in trouble), what is needed is really a better laity. from there come the priests. and this will not be reached by aping whatever the pop pastors do, those live and die every tour and revival cycle. some people call for the restoration of Latin, to a degree i agree, although more beautiful vernacular liturgies should be made as well. also, it would help to stop giving money to lawyers for ephebophile and homo clergy, and perhaps returning it to services for the parishioners as well as better liturgies, instead of having to import followers. but that is another story…

      25. @notanon
        incels = shrinking middle class

        when you have a shrinking middle class and a population who remember that middle class life as "normal" then women will either
        - compete for the shrinking number of men who can provide that life
        - turn to prostitution and service many men to make a living (made a lot easier by internet thottery)
        - or drop out of the competition entirely (blue hairs).

        solution: marines -> Wall St.

        agree to a degree.
        just that redistribution by itself solves nothing, in fact it is worse as pure economics.
        without addressing social concerns regarding ethnicity and men-women relationships, the dynamics might remain the same and lead to a similar spot later down the road.

        • Replies: @notanon

        just that redistribution by itself solves nothing, in fact it is worse as pure economics
         
        if wealth becomes over-concentrated the economy stagnates and eventually collapses due to lack of demand.

        (usury will always create this situation over time unless it's carefully regulated)

        in which case rebalancing the economy to recreate a healthy middle class (easily done by restricting the labor supply) will solve the problem.

        there's a difference between redistribution for ideological reasons (equality) and redistribution as the solution to wealth becoming over-concentrated.
      26. @Rosie
        Percentage of incels in the population: 0%

        There is no such thing as an incel, but only men who won't join a club that will have them as a member.

        “no, it’s your fault. because.”

        or if more childish in the mind:
        “serves you right, icky boys!”

        • Replies: @L Woods
        It's always the same inane pablum from her. I rarely feel the need to ignore commenters, but sometimes, life is just too short. Attention whores, like pestilential rodents, should not be fed. Probably only Corvinus is more consistently annoying.
        , @ThreeCranes
        I don't think that's what she means. I believe Rosie is saying that for every unattractive guy out there, there's an equally unattractive gal.

        Just as most men overestimate their talents and skills so too they overestimate their manly attractiveness. A big part of getting laid is lowering your sights a bit--humbling to be sure--but ultimately more gratifying. Its likely that his best match is, realistically, the feminine mirror image of who he is. Sadly, this likely rules out pinup material, homecoming queens or the woman he fantasizes about.( After all, sixty six percent of us are average and another seventeen worse off than that.)

        Teaching men "game", i.e. tricks of the trade that theoretically enable a poor slob to nail a hitherto unbangable chick is not necessarily a winning strategy. It may be more effective to teach him to accept himself as he really is and then urge him to find an appropriate match. So, an ironic outcome of "game" may be that in encouraging ordinary guys in the belief that, with a little spiel, they can bag the unattainable, it ultimately adds to the tally of incels.
      27. @Disordered Deacon
        agree to a degree.
        just that redistribution by itself solves nothing, in fact it is worse as pure economics.
        without addressing social concerns regarding ethnicity and men-women relationships, the dynamics might remain the same and lead to a similar spot later down the road.

        just that redistribution by itself solves nothing, in fact it is worse as pure economics

        if wealth becomes over-concentrated the economy stagnates and eventually collapses due to lack of demand.

        (usury will always create this situation over time unless it’s carefully regulated)

        in which case rebalancing the economy to recreate a healthy middle class (easily done by restricting the labor supply) will solve the problem.

        there’s a difference between redistribution for ideological reasons (equality) and redistribution as the solution to wealth becoming over-concentrated.

      28. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
        @notanon
        incels = shrinking middle class

        when you have a shrinking middle class and a population who remember that middle class life as "normal" then women will either
        - compete for the shrinking number of men who can provide that life
        - turn to prostitution and service many men to make a living (made a lot easier by internet thottery)
        - or drop out of the competition entirely (blue hairs).

        solution: marines -> Wall St.

        Yes, the incel thing tracks the recent decline in marriage and fertility, which are at historic lows.

        Relative status and conditions are more of a factor than the objective, material conditions of historic middle class life. An average man today can provide a housewife with better and more material comforts and amenities than in the past, but the average man’s relative status is much lower today because of sexual egalitarianism and feminism. Women have economic independence now and no longer have to depend on individual men as providers, and thus men’s higher social status as providers, which all men, including poor working class men, enjoyed above women no longer exists. That’s the ultimate reason. Remember, women were marrying regular men and popping out babies when all those men could provide were wooden cabins without indoor plumbing and electricity.

        You are right about the rise of prostitution, both actual and de facto. It has been significantly enabled by the rise of social media over the past decade, and mirrors The Great Awokening, which also seems to have been enabled by social media. Ordinary young women use social media to engage in prostitution and seek out “sugar daddies”, or they use it to advertise themselves and seek out higher status men rather than settle for long term relationships with regular men in real life local networks. They’re not doing it for a middle class lifestyle, though. They’re doing it because the relative status of regular men has declined so much.

        • Replies: @L Woods
        I know a young(ish) women that's engaged in part time crypto-prostitution -- the amount of money thirsty simps will throw at even meh looking women (sometimes even without sex) is simply breathtaking. This very same chick will screech without end about prostitutes as "trafficking victims," of course. Sounds to me like someone doesn't want cheap competition damaging her rents, but I digress.
      29. How do you know that everyone who does not have sex is an “incel”? Ever heard about voluntary celibacy? Not everyone lives for nothing else that sex, even with non stop degenerate media pushing all sex all the time.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        How do you know that everyone who does not have sex is an “incel”? Ever heard about voluntary celibacy? Not everyone lives for nothing else that sex, even with non stop degenerate media pushing all sex all the time.
         
        With porn, why should these degenerate whiners bother leaving the house?
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Fair. Incel is useful shorthand, but just as not all who wander are lost so not all who abstain are omega.
      30. Want to know why there are so many incels? Go read the “Bronze Age Pervert” post.

      31. The percentage of men under the age of 30 who report not having had sex in at least a year came in at 28% in 2018

        Where are all the raging sluts when they are really needed?

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Where are all the raging sluts when they are really needed?
         
        Raging sluts have sex with people they like. Incels are unlikable.

        Wanting what you can't have is a human universal. Incels have turned it into a grievance that is now everyone else's problem but their own.
        , @Screwtape
        If by ‘raging slut’ you mean Sexually Empowered Women, then they are in plain view.

        Usually seen staring into their handheld skinner boxes, where they are tapping the bar of the latest crop of chads. Hoping, though increasingly fleetingly, that they might convert a bang into the boyfriend experience.

        No sluts for you! Luckily, time is on the side of the sexless male.

        As long as he is productive during his sexless years and maintains a disciplined future time preference he can parlay his 401k and sensible sedan into beta bux when the SEW is ready to exchange her last two eggs for a downshift in her awesome career and a habitat in a zip code with “good schools”.

        If he is really smart he will also be attending church, where he will receive instructions on exactly what he needs to do to help a SEW stick the landing. Just be patient grasshopper, it is gods will.
        , @L Woods
        They're on the carousel -- no betas allowed.
        , @Anonymoose
        They're all having sex with the chads. They don't like to have sex beta losers except to perhaps swindle them.
      32. @Disordered Deacon
        i understand, as jizyah we have some rights.

        some.

        you might understand the apprehension, then. even if we keep our bacon and wine.
        just like i understand the mutual hate for Maher we seem to happily share.

        the Templars usually negotiated when needed, however. meaning, there had been too much bloodshed already. nevertheless you get my point. i guess AE picked Mennonite because they seem like the vaunted fertility ideal for non-Catholic traditionalists - and yes, that seems an oxymoron to me too.

        you might understand the apprehension, then. even if we keep our bacon and wine.

        Non-Muslims might get to keep their bacon and wine but lose their heads. Not really a good deal. And Muslims can change the terms at will.

      33. Anonymous[217] • Disclaimer says:

        Audacious,

        There is no conspiracy. Conspiracy theories are for people who have schizophrenia.

        You know what happened in 2012-2014 that didn’t happen in the 30 years beforehand? Dating apps and the explosion of the smartphone.

        Before 2012, most people didn’t have smartphones and dating apps weren’t insanely huge. There was online dating on your home computer, but that required being at home, setting aside time just to use it. It wasn’t a small device on you 24/7 that you could use any time.

        Dating apps have messed up the dating market because now, almost everyone has a smartphone. This means almost everyone could choose to use Tinder should they want to, at any time, even just for 30 seconds. So now the top 72% of men are sleeping with the top 83% of women.

      34. @iffen
        The percentage of men under the age of 30 who report not having had sex in at least a year came in at 28% in 2018

        Where are all the raging sluts when they are really needed?

        Where are all the raging sluts when they are really needed?

        Raging sluts have sex with people they like. Incels are unlikable.

        Wanting what you can’t have is a human universal. Incels have turned it into a grievance that is now everyone else’s problem but their own.

      35. @MattinLA
        As a man who was an extreme incel in the 90s, I think there is some falseness in the numbers here. I think people were more willing to lie about virginity in the 80s and 90s period, simply because everyone believed that everyone was having casual sex at the time and so to admit otherwise would be to self-identity as a freak. For whatever reason, incels now know they're not alone and are admitting their sexlessness to surveys. But the whole phenomenon actually began as soon as feminism became institutionalized in the 70s.

        While I’m sure you’re correct about underreporting, I’m pretty sure the phenomenon remains so today and for the same reasons. In fact, I’d say incels are more stigmatized (even demonized) than ever now that they’re somewhat out of the shadows.

        Moreover, like unemployment, these figures fail to capture the equivalent of underemployment — the extent to which men are forced to date far down or go to ridiculous contrivances to eke out anything at all.

        Generally the party line is still basically that we’re not even allowed to think of this as a problem — to do so evokes the boilerplate panoply of posturing, humblebrag, feminist hysteria etc that accompanies any mention of the issue (an expression of the particular brand of moral(ist) outrage reserved for low status males who exhibit signs of not knowing their place). Somehow, The Pay Gap is the defining injustice of our times, but this sort of gross inequity is just fine (and you will think so or else).

        • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
        • Replies: @Rosie

        Moreover, like unemployment, these figures fail to capture the equivalent of underemployment — the extent to which men are forced to date far down or go to ridiculous contrivances to eke out anything at all.
         
        This is the crux of it all. By definition, the best you can get is not "dating down."
        , @Jay Fink
        I have more respect for incels who stay alone than those who date far down. The entire dating marketplace would be a lot better if men were even half as selective as women are.
      36. @anon
        How do you know that everyone who does not have sex is an "incel"? Ever heard about voluntary celibacy? Not everyone lives for nothing else that sex, even with non stop degenerate media pushing all sex all the time.

        How do you know that everyone who does not have sex is an “incel”? Ever heard about voluntary celibacy? Not everyone lives for nothing else that sex, even with non stop degenerate media pushing all sex all the time.

        With porn, why should these degenerate whiners bother leaving the house?

        • Replies: @Dumbo
        Actually, porn increases inceldom. Prohibit porn and the situation will improve, at least men will not think about sex all the time and have totally unrealistic expectations. As for voluntary celibates, yes they exist, although rare. Perhaps only religion can give enough spiritual strength to overcome desires. Although there are some who believe that by not having sex a man can sublimate sexual energy into other creative activities. Not the case of incels, though. It has to be voluntary.
        , @iffen
        Why would you call someone who does not have sex (for whatever reason) a degenerate?

        Do you not see the exploitation of women (and girls) in the production of porn?
      37. @notanon
        incels = shrinking middle class

        when you have a shrinking middle class and a population who remember that middle class life as "normal" then women will either
        - compete for the shrinking number of men who can provide that life
        - turn to prostitution and service many men to make a living (made a lot easier by internet thottery)
        - or drop out of the competition entirely (blue hairs).

        solution: marines -> Wall St.

        This is widely assumed, but I just don’t see in every day life that women are gravitating towards middle class providers (at least while they’re still in their prime reproductive years). Not a week goes by in my Virginia exurb where I don’t see an attractive teenaged/early twenties girl with an aspiring rapper or ethnically ambiguous chad in tow.

        • Replies: @Anonymous
        Yes, women now have access to material comforts and amenities basically just for breathing through welfare and employment. A male provider is no longer necessary for this. Under this new baseline level, women have greater security to take risks, and the level is no longer good enough for women. A potential mate has to be able to provide above and beyond this level, which women can now obtain just for breathing through the government and jobs.

        This is why you see young women now in their prime years engaging in actual or de facto prostitution, or buying the equivalent of lottery tickets by trying to snag very wealthy, high status men that can provide the exotic, ultra luxury lifestyles they see on Instagram, or seeking out underclass types who have the opposite of a provider strategy.

        This is an unsustainable system though, because it depends on taxing ordinary men, who are also needed to maintain basic infrastructure and keep the peace, both internally with domestic police and externally with the military, and affirmative action in favor of women and against men in employment.
        , @Jay Fink
        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers. If this were to happen it would be a near utopia. Lower and middle class women would only pick decent responsible men who would make great husbands and fathers. Picking the exciting bad boy would be far too risky. The family would make a complete comeback and children would be raised by two parents including a positve male role model who loves them.
        , @Feryl
        The rise in inter-racial relationships is heavily caused by the fact that the generation born since about 1990 is much less white than older generations. In other words, today's white youth have a far greater pool of non-white mates to choose from. States like Minnesota were 90% white (or more) before the 1990's. Supposing a white woman considered dating outside her race, there wasn't a whole lot to choose from.

        It varies a lot from one state to another; in terms of demographics. There are now states where there are fewer blacks than there used to be as % of the state's pop. (mostly in the Western states), but more Mexicans.
      38. @L Woods
        While I'm sure you're correct about underreporting, I'm pretty sure the phenomenon remains so today and for the same reasons. In fact, I'd say incels are more stigmatized (even demonized) than ever now that they're somewhat out of the shadows.

        Moreover, like unemployment, these figures fail to capture the equivalent of underemployment -- the extent to which men are forced to date far down or go to ridiculous contrivances to eke out anything at all.

        Generally the party line is still basically that we're not even allowed to think of this as a problem -- to do so evokes the boilerplate panoply of posturing, humblebrag, feminist hysteria etc that accompanies any mention of the issue (an expression of the particular brand of moral(ist) outrage reserved for low status males who exhibit signs of not knowing their place). Somehow, The Pay Gap is the defining injustice of our times, but this sort of gross inequity is just fine (and you will think so or else).

        Moreover, like unemployment, these figures fail to capture the equivalent of underemployment — the extent to which men are forced to date far down or go to ridiculous contrivances to eke out anything at all.

        This is the crux of it all. By definition, the best you can get is not “dating down.”

      39. @iffen
        The percentage of men under the age of 30 who report not having had sex in at least a year came in at 28% in 2018

        Where are all the raging sluts when they are really needed?

        If by ‘raging slut’ you mean Sexually Empowered Women, then they are in plain view.

        Usually seen staring into their handheld skinner boxes, where they are tapping the bar of the latest crop of chads. Hoping, though increasingly fleetingly, that they might convert a bang into the boyfriend experience.

        No sluts for you! Luckily, time is on the side of the sexless male.

        As long as he is productive during his sexless years and maintains a disciplined future time preference he can parlay his 401k and sensible sedan into beta bux when the SEW is ready to exchange her last two eggs for a downshift in her awesome career and a habitat in a zip code with “good schools”.

        If he is really smart he will also be attending church, where he will receive instructions on exactly what he needs to do to help a SEW stick the landing. Just be patient grasshopper, it is gods will.

        • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
        "SEW"

        I think a better term is the Sexually Overpowered Woman," or SOW for short.

        But you're definitely on to something.
        , @Jay Fink
        You nailed it...right down to the "good schools". My brother married a single mother and they are relocating. She is all over Facebook talking about how important "good schools" are in choosing what house to purchase.
      40. @Anonymous
        Yes, the incel thing tracks the recent decline in marriage and fertility, which are at historic lows.

        Relative status and conditions are more of a factor than the objective, material conditions of historic middle class life. An average man today can provide a housewife with better and more material comforts and amenities than in the past, but the average man's relative status is much lower today because of sexual egalitarianism and feminism. Women have economic independence now and no longer have to depend on individual men as providers, and thus men's higher social status as providers, which all men, including poor working class men, enjoyed above women no longer exists. That's the ultimate reason. Remember, women were marrying regular men and popping out babies when all those men could provide were wooden cabins without indoor plumbing and electricity.

        You are right about the rise of prostitution, both actual and de facto. It has been significantly enabled by the rise of social media over the past decade, and mirrors The Great Awokening, which also seems to have been enabled by social media. Ordinary young women use social media to engage in prostitution and seek out "sugar daddies", or they use it to advertise themselves and seek out higher status men rather than settle for long term relationships with regular men in real life local networks. They're not doing it for a middle class lifestyle, though. They're doing it because the relative status of regular men has declined so much.

        I know a young(ish) women that’s engaged in part time crypto-prostitution — the amount of money thirsty simps will throw at even meh looking women (sometimes even without sex) is simply breathtaking. This very same chick will screech without end about prostitutes as “trafficking victims,” of course. Sounds to me like someone doesn’t want cheap competition damaging her rents, but I digress.

      41. @Disordered Deacon
        "no, it's your fault. because."

        or if more childish in the mind:
        "serves you right, icky boys!"

        It’s always the same inane pablum from her. I rarely feel the need to ignore commenters, but sometimes, life is just too short. Attention whores, like pestilential rodents, should not be fed. Probably only Corvinus is more consistently annoying.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        It’s always the same inane pablum from her. I rarely feel the need to ignore commenters, but sometimes, life is just too short. Attention whores, like pestilential rodents, should not be fed. Probably only Corvinus is more consistently annoying.
         
        I assure you, I have much better things to do than babysit on these forums, but I have White children who effectively have no future with the likes of you fouling up the Dissident Right.
      42. @iffen
        The percentage of men under the age of 30 who report not having had sex in at least a year came in at 28% in 2018

        Where are all the raging sluts when they are really needed?

        They’re on the carousel — no betas allowed.

      43. @L Woods
        It's always the same inane pablum from her. I rarely feel the need to ignore commenters, but sometimes, life is just too short. Attention whores, like pestilential rodents, should not be fed. Probably only Corvinus is more consistently annoying.

        It’s always the same inane pablum from her. I rarely feel the need to ignore commenters, but sometimes, life is just too short. Attention whores, like pestilential rodents, should not be fed. Probably only Corvinus is more consistently annoying.

        I assure you, I have much better things to do than babysit on these forums, but I have White children who effectively have no future with the likes of you fouling up the Dissident Right.

      44. Are men biologically hardwired to overestimate their own attractiveness?

        https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/8956056/Relentless-optimism-of-ugly-men-makes-up-for-unappealing-looks.html

        If so, perhaps some of the worst offenders will do us all a favor and make themselves scarce in future generations.

      45. @Talha

        The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children
         
        Motherhood requires sacrifice and hard work and giving of yourself, news at eleven.

        Peace.

        Yes. The issue is not about being “happy” or not, personal “happiness” may never be achieved one way or another, whatever you do (“marry, you will regret it, don’t marry, you will regret it” – Kierkegaard). Maternity requires sacrifice and sometimes pain, but it is something essential.

        I am reminded now of a scene of the film “Nostalgia” by Tarkovsky, perhaps not one of his best movies, but anyway, in this scene a childless single woman in her thirties goes to a Church, the priest tells her that in his view “women are made to have children and raise them, with patience and sacrifice. I know, you want to be happy, but there are more important things.” She doesn’t like the answer.

        • Replies: @Talha
        My teachers have taught me that contentment can indeed be found in the world, but happiness is elusive and ephemeral. This world wasn’t made for happiness, it is the abode of trials (part of its purpose is to break your heart so you don’t become too attached to it) - it simply is not meant for that. The next life; that is a different matter altogether.

        Kierkegaard is always good to hear from.

        Peace.
        , @Anonymous
        Stalker and Nostlaghia are Tarkovsky's best films imo.
      46. @Rosie

        How do you know that everyone who does not have sex is an “incel”? Ever heard about voluntary celibacy? Not everyone lives for nothing else that sex, even with non stop degenerate media pushing all sex all the time.
         
        With porn, why should these degenerate whiners bother leaving the house?

        Actually, porn increases inceldom. Prohibit porn and the situation will improve, at least men will not think about sex all the time and have totally unrealistic expectations. As for voluntary celibates, yes they exist, although rare. Perhaps only religion can give enough spiritual strength to overcome desires. Although there are some who believe that by not having sex a man can sublimate sexual energy into other creative activities. Not the case of incels, though. It has to be voluntary.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Actually, porn increases inceldom.
         
        Agreed. Some men wind up with women who are more attractive than they are, and these incels think they should be able to hit the jackpot, too. The problem is that ugly guys with cute girlfriends are just overall better people than they are. They treat women like human beings you get to know over time, and then see what develops.

        We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away.

        https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/longer-acquaintance-levels-the-romantic-playing-field.html
        , @L Woods
        "Totally unrealistic expectations" are female projection -- there's nothing "unrealistic" about not being fat. If men do have "unrealistic expectations," it's the expectation of finding a "best friend," something that isn't really possible or even desirable with women.
      47. @Dumbo
        Actually, porn increases inceldom. Prohibit porn and the situation will improve, at least men will not think about sex all the time and have totally unrealistic expectations. As for voluntary celibates, yes they exist, although rare. Perhaps only religion can give enough spiritual strength to overcome desires. Although there are some who believe that by not having sex a man can sublimate sexual energy into other creative activities. Not the case of incels, though. It has to be voluntary.

        Actually, porn increases inceldom.

        Agreed. Some men wind up with women who are more attractive than they are, and these incels think they should be able to hit the jackpot, too. The problem is that ugly guys with cute girlfriends are just overall better people than they are. They treat women like human beings you get to know over time, and then see what develops.

        We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away.

        https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/longer-acquaintance-levels-the-romantic-playing-field.html

        • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
        "We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away."

        So true. Nature imbued women with this defense mechanism called mate selection.
        , @Dumbo

        They treat women like human beings you get to know over time, and then see what develops.
         
        This may have been true in the past, but it is less and less likely today. First of all, there are graphs showing that most couples today are formed from people who meet in online dating, not meeting in social activities, work, or through friends or family. (And I think we all know how online dating tends to be bad for average men.) So there are less opportunities for real interaction, and it has become more difficult for young men and women to meet naturally and slowly get into a relationship.

        https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-H0KmyfWFE4k/XO3ZNR8pmCI/AAAAAAAAEi0/3s3FOP43He4tvtOGVJ-sA1diyW7oQR_hQCLcBGAs/s1600/_88183678_hetero_couples_624.png

        Second, I think many women, because of feminism and other cultural issues, such as pop culture trash, have become more and more demanding in what they expect of a man, while at the same time taking less care of themselves, so that now you have the strange spectacle of fat tattooed feminists who believe that they have been "raped" if a guy who is not an alpha just looks at her. It is really bizarre.
      48. @Rosie
        Percentage of incels in the population: 0%

        There is no such thing as an incel, but only men who won't join a club that will have them as a member.

        There are many reasons why people won’t have sex. I think there were always people who for some reason or other were left out of the sexual market. However, with feminism and female independence this became a much worse issue. As someone else said here, now that women have financial independence and even support from the State if they are single moms, they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men.

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem.

        Now it is true that there are some “incels” who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don’t really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there’s not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages.

        I’ve read an article about some Japanese dude who “married” a cartoon character because he couldn’t get the attention of any woman. And I’ve read that in Japan now 1 out of 4 men will never have sex (or something to that effect).

        But in Japan until the fifties marriages arranged or semi-arranged by parents were the norm (just watch any Ozu movie), and it worked for them. So maybe they should go back to arranged marriages.

        As for the West, it is more difficult for this to happen, our treatment of women has always been more free, despite what women say about the “patriarchy”. I’ve heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem
         
        For the millionth time, that is pure projection:

        https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/male-messaging-curve.png

        I’ve heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.
         
        Bad idea.

        https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12118

        When men have all the power in the dating market, you get a breakdown in civilized family life. Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power. Men who really just want sex can get a reasonably satisfying substitute from the comfort and psychological safety of their own home. Women cannot get what we want from any other than a real flesh-and-blood Male. (Yes, we love our cats, but they are not a substitute for a man.)
        , @Anonymous
        I like the culling of men approach. I say we start with you.
        , @Mark G.
        A study was done where people were shown photos of the opposite sex and asked what percentage were good looking. Women said about twenty percent of men were good looking and men said about sixty percent of women were. Men are generally more promiscuous than women and have lower standards for who they find attractive enough to have sex with and will thus rate a higher percentage of members of the opposite sex as attractive. However, when another study was done on women responding to men on online dating services it was found that women were responding to men outside that twenty percent. Women were looking at other factors too when responding. What has changed the dating market somewhat in recent years is the increased availability of welfare for women, increases in the number of government jobs that women can work at, and affirmative action for women in private sector jobs. The unattractive male could formerly compensate somewhat by offering to marry women and be an economic provider. This can still be done but is now harder. If you say that maybe twenty percent of women who formerly married have now decided due to government income transfers not to marry that means for every 80 women there are 100 men competing for them. Men have divided into four groups. Some men still focus on careers and try to be the male provider type but their numbers are declining as they realize fewer women are interested in that and they see increasingly large percentages of their income taken in taxes and see themselves passed over for job promotions due to affirmative action. There is a second group of men who focus more on their looks. Gym memberships for men have increased in recent years and more men are now focused on fashion and grooming than formerly. There is a third group of men who have decided to psychologically manipulate women into sex and it is that group that studies the game blogs and books that have increased in number in recent years. Then there is a fourth group of men that have decided to just make enough money to get by on and focus on television, video games and various other hobbies men engage in. The rise of this slacker male is very noticeable. I'm older and I've seen the increase over the years. The slacker types continue to have sex if they have good game or are physically attractive but if they aren't they contribute to the incel phenomenon.
        , @Corvinus
        "It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem."

        That always has been, and always will be, a made up statistic by the manosphere, just like this "correlation" between incels and The Great Awokening. It's junk science.

        "they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men."

        You mean there has been little reason for men OR women to settle for the past 60 years.

        "Now it is true that there are some “incels” who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don’t really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there’s not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages."

        Exactly why they are "incels", as these suggestions only perpetuate their "status". How about assisting your fellow man in that regard?
        , @YetAnotherAnon
        " you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues."

        Such a society would offer an irresistible target for male invaders, even today. Hell, I'd be tempted even at my age. And what resistance to invasion could such a society put up?
      49. @Dumbo
        Actually, porn increases inceldom. Prohibit porn and the situation will improve, at least men will not think about sex all the time and have totally unrealistic expectations. As for voluntary celibates, yes they exist, although rare. Perhaps only religion can give enough spiritual strength to overcome desires. Although there are some who believe that by not having sex a man can sublimate sexual energy into other creative activities. Not the case of incels, though. It has to be voluntary.

        “Totally unrealistic expectations” are female projection — there’s nothing “unrealistic” about not being fat. If men do have “unrealistic expectations,” it’s the expectation of finding a “best friend,” something that isn’t really possible or even desirable with women.

        • Replies: @Dumbo
        Well, some men do have or start with unrealistic expectations, although they are able to settle for less readily. Women on the other hand, may have even less realistic expectations about men, but they are less ready to settle for a less attractive option (at least until they reach their mid-thirties).

        Female obesity (and in some cases also male obesity) is indeed a great problem in North America. However the other day I saw a couple, an extremely obese man and an extremely obese women walking hand in hand. They seemed happy. Maybe they are the future.

        Yes, friendship with women is tricky.

        Best.
        , @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
        America used to be a country of moderation when it comes to the size and health of our women. The interior of our country used to have plenty of healthy women of at least moderate attractiveness.

        Today we are a country of extremes.

        I am always dismayed when I travel from my rural home into the cities, particularly Washington, to find that all of the attractive women have been vacuumed, as it were, by the forces of careerism into the cities. The elites have found a way to hoard all the attractive white women.

        But, yes, you are right. The fat people of this country - including men - expect us to accept their fatness as "normal." It's ridiculous. I'll have none of it.
      50. Among singles between the ages of 20 and 40 there are more men than women. The imbalance is even greater if we look at childless singles. If you don’t believe me, click on this link:

        http://jonathansoma.com/singles/

        Involuntary celibacy is inevitable among many young and middle-aged men. In this respect, nothing will change if we get rid of feminism, atheism, and porn. We’ll just have a lot of nice, church-going celibates.

        There is, in fact, no easy solution. We could improve things a bit by making divorce more difficult (and preventing a lot of older men from re-entering the mate market). We could also make sure that immigration is gender-balanced (and not dominanted by young single men). That would improve things … a bit. Unfortunately, the main driver of this imbalance in the mate market is the decline in male mortality. Fewer young boys are dying in childhood, and fewer young men are dying in wars, traffic accidents, and workplace accidents.

        I wrote about this several years back:

        http://www.unz.com/pfrost/young-male-and-single/

        • Replies: @iffen
        and fewer young men are dying in wars

        Fixable with little effort.
        , @L Woods
        There are roughly 1.08 males born for every female. That does not even come close to explaining what we’re seeing here.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Short of locking up even more young black men, creating an 84th visa category for young, single Asian women, and hand it out like candy, it looks like you're right.
        , @216
        I had unknowingly echoed you below. The male mortality part is the uncomfortable elephant in the room that I did not mention. Indeed there are no easy answers.

        Is it possible for the fertility ratio to be technologically adjusted in favor of females? I dislike that for moral reasons, but Orientals tend not to have such scruples.
      51. @L Woods
        "Totally unrealistic expectations" are female projection -- there's nothing "unrealistic" about not being fat. If men do have "unrealistic expectations," it's the expectation of finding a "best friend," something that isn't really possible or even desirable with women.

        Well, some men do have or start with unrealistic expectations, although they are able to settle for less readily. Women on the other hand, may have even less realistic expectations about men, but they are less ready to settle for a less attractive option (at least until they reach their mid-thirties).

        Female obesity (and in some cases also male obesity) is indeed a great problem in North America. However the other day I saw a couple, an extremely obese man and an extremely obese women walking hand in hand. They seemed happy. Maybe they are the future.

        Yes, friendship with women is tricky.

        Best.

      52. @Dumbo
        There are many reasons why people won't have sex. I think there were always people who for some reason or other were left out of the sexual market. However, with feminism and female independence this became a much worse issue. As someone else said here, now that women have financial independence and even support from the State if they are single moms, they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men.

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem.

        Now it is true that there are some "incels" who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don't really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there's not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages.

        I've read an article about some Japanese dude who "married" a cartoon character because he couldn't get the attention of any woman. And I've read that in Japan now 1 out of 4 men will never have sex (or something to that effect).

        But in Japan until the fifties marriages arranged or semi-arranged by parents were the norm (just watch any Ozu movie), and it worked for them. So maybe they should go back to arranged marriages.

        As for the West, it is more difficult for this to happen, our treatment of women has always been more free, despite what women say about the "patriarchy". I've heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem

        For the millionth time, that is pure projection:

        I’ve heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.

        Bad idea.

        https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12118

        When men have all the power in the dating market, you get a breakdown in civilized family life. Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power. Men who really just want sex can get a reasonably satisfying substitute from the comfort and psychological safety of their own home. Women cannot get what we want from any other than a real flesh-and-blood Male. (Yes, we love our cats, but they are not a substitute for a man.)

        • Replies: @Dumbo

        " Women cannot get what we want from any other than a real flesh-and-blood Male."
         
        Opening jars? Helping with computer problems? :D

        I realize now also that there should be a category of "married incels", as thare are many married couples who no longer have sex, or have it only very occasionally, so a year without sex is possible (I know at least of a couple who had not had sex in four years)

        Also, until what age someone can be called an "incel"?

        Many divorced or separated middle-aged men have real difficulty in going back to dating at this period in life, so they don't have that many options to have sex than with prostitutes, as dating is mostly for the young. Well, yes, maybe they can get another divorced woman with two kids from different fathers, I suppose. But is it worth it, just for sex?
        , @SunBakedSuburb
        I'm a middle-age man and am bemused by this incel phenomenon. There have always been guys who struck out with women, and those of us who were more fortunate still had our fallow periods. Digital screen addiction and the ability to connect with their fellow broken hearts and wallow in pity and despair doesn't help these guys.

        "Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power."

        Porn actually emasculates men, and can lead them further down the incel pit.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Women are going to be in big trouble when sexbots really start coming onto the scene.
      53. @Talha
        Mennonites are the furthest thing from Templars you can find, which is why I mentioned if that was the only other option. If we are honest, a reconstituted Templar cadre would go far more postal on the target-rich environment of atheist apostates/heathens. The Templars actually negotiated terms and treaties with Muslim polities. Muslims may have theological differences, but we don’t do this kind of comedy about the Son of Mary (pbuh):
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=B6zorQM2xOM

        Priorities...

        keep our bacon and wine.
         
        Those are completely protected rights for non-Muslim minorities and have been for centuries. Even a state like Pakistan where Christians often get the short end of the stick, these are protected rights via the constitution. Look up the Murree Brewery.

        They are simply not acceptable for jizyah payment in lieu of performing military services for males. Women and kids don’t have to worry about this.

        Peace.

        There has been some interesting speculation regarding the Templar association with the Sufis and how this experience with Sufism led them into Gnostic beliefs. Thus their persecution by the Church. And Gnosticism is allegedly a Cabalistic subversion. Canadian Muslim writer David Livingstone has made this connection, as have others.

        • Replies: @Talha
        Wouldn’t be surprised; there were some very strange groups operating at that time in the Muslim world - heretical Sufis claiming Batini teachings (some of who are still around like the Alevis in Turkey).

        Peace.
      54. @Rosie

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem
         
        For the millionth time, that is pure projection:

        https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/male-messaging-curve.png

        I’ve heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.
         
        Bad idea.

        https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12118

        When men have all the power in the dating market, you get a breakdown in civilized family life. Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power. Men who really just want sex can get a reasonably satisfying substitute from the comfort and psychological safety of their own home. Women cannot get what we want from any other than a real flesh-and-blood Male. (Yes, we love our cats, but they are not a substitute for a man.)

        ” Women cannot get what we want from any other than a real flesh-and-blood Male.”

        Opening jars? Helping with computer problems? 😀

        I realize now also that there should be a category of “married incels”, as thare are many married couples who no longer have sex, or have it only very occasionally, so a year without sex is possible (I know at least of a couple who had not had sex in four years)

        Also, until what age someone can be called an “incel”?

        Many divorced or separated middle-aged men have real difficulty in going back to dating at this period in life, so they don’t have that many options to have sex than with prostitutes, as dating is mostly for the young. Well, yes, maybe they can get another divorced woman with two kids from different fathers, I suppose. But is it worth it, just for sex?

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Opening jars? Helping with computer problems?
         
        Well, yeah, among other things. Lol

        Well, yes, maybe they can get another divorced woman with two kids from different fathers, I suppose. But is it worth it, just for sex?
         
        Evidently not to them, but it's not my problem either way.
      55. @SunBakedSuburb
        There has been some interesting speculation regarding the Templar association with the Sufis and how this experience with Sufism led them into Gnostic beliefs. Thus their persecution by the Church. And Gnosticism is allegedly a Cabalistic subversion. Canadian Muslim writer David Livingstone has made this connection, as have others.

        Wouldn’t be surprised; there were some very strange groups operating at that time in the Muslim world – heretical Sufis claiming Batini teachings (some of who are still around like the Alevis in Turkey).

        Peace.

      56. @Dumbo

        " Women cannot get what we want from any other than a real flesh-and-blood Male."
         
        Opening jars? Helping with computer problems? :D

        I realize now also that there should be a category of "married incels", as thare are many married couples who no longer have sex, or have it only very occasionally, so a year without sex is possible (I know at least of a couple who had not had sex in four years)

        Also, until what age someone can be called an "incel"?

        Many divorced or separated middle-aged men have real difficulty in going back to dating at this period in life, so they don't have that many options to have sex than with prostitutes, as dating is mostly for the young. Well, yes, maybe they can get another divorced woman with two kids from different fathers, I suppose. But is it worth it, just for sex?

        Opening jars? Helping with computer problems?

        Well, yeah, among other things. Lol

        Well, yes, maybe they can get another divorced woman with two kids from different fathers, I suppose. But is it worth it, just for sex?

        Evidently not to them, but it’s not my problem either way.

      57. @iffen
        The percentage of men under the age of 30 who report not having had sex in at least a year came in at 28% in 2018

        Where are all the raging sluts when they are really needed?

        They’re all having sex with the chads. They don’t like to have sex beta losers except to perhaps swindle them.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        They’re all having sex with the chads. They don’t like to have sex beta losers except to perhaps swindle them.
         
        The Staceys may be having sex with the Chads, but the non-Staceys are getting ignored, by the very non-Chads who are the subjects of this pity party.
      58. @Rosie

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem
         
        For the millionth time, that is pure projection:

        https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/male-messaging-curve.png

        I’ve heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.
         
        Bad idea.

        https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12118

        When men have all the power in the dating market, you get a breakdown in civilized family life. Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power. Men who really just want sex can get a reasonably satisfying substitute from the comfort and psychological safety of their own home. Women cannot get what we want from any other than a real flesh-and-blood Male. (Yes, we love our cats, but they are not a substitute for a man.)

        I’m a middle-age man and am bemused by this incel phenomenon. There have always been guys who struck out with women, and those of us who were more fortunate still had our fallow periods. Digital screen addiction and the ability to connect with their fellow broken hearts and wallow in pity and despair doesn’t help these guys.

        “Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power.”

        Porn actually emasculates men, and can lead them further down the incel pit.

        • Replies: @L Woods
        "As a middle aged man," you have no idea what you're talking about. Boomers should just be flat forbidden from commenting on the modern dating market -- they're utterly clueless. All they can do is chortle about the "losers" and switch back to Fox News.
        , @Anonymous
        Ok Joe Biden.
      59. @Dumbo
        Yes. The issue is not about being "happy" or not, personal "happiness" may never be achieved one way or another, whatever you do ("marry, you will regret it, don't marry, you will regret it" - Kierkegaard). Maternity requires sacrifice and sometimes pain, but it is something essential.

        I am reminded now of a scene of the film "Nostalgia" by Tarkovsky, perhaps not one of his best movies, but anyway, in this scene a childless single woman in her thirties goes to a Church, the priest tells her that in his view "women are made to have children and raise them, with patience and sacrifice. I know, you want to be happy, but there are more important things." She doesn't like the answer.

        My teachers have taught me that contentment can indeed be found in the world, but happiness is elusive and ephemeral. This world wasn’t made for happiness, it is the abode of trials (part of its purpose is to break your heart so you don’t become too attached to it) – it simply is not meant for that. The next life; that is a different matter altogether.

        Kierkegaard is always good to hear from.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
        "This world wasn't made for happiness, it is the abode of trials ..."

        Accepting this truth can bring a measure of peace.
        , @Abelard Lindsey
        Isn't this just the fancy four-bit way of saying that the best things in life require effort and determination? That's certainly one lesson life has taught me.
        , @Denis
        I haven't commented enough lately to give you an agree, but I think you're completely right. I don't think life in this world is about happiness or getting what you deserve, even though it is possible to find some kind of happiness for most of us.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Nothing happens to any man that he is not fitted by nature to bear.

        (I always find it good to hear from Marcus Aurelius, too. Hope you don't mind.)
      60. @Anonymoose
        They're all having sex with the chads. They don't like to have sex beta losers except to perhaps swindle them.

        They’re all having sex with the chads. They don’t like to have sex beta losers except to perhaps swindle them.

        The Staceys may be having sex with the Chads, but the non-Staceys are getting ignored, by the very non-Chads who are the subjects of this pity party.

      61. @Rosie

        Actually, porn increases inceldom.
         
        Agreed. Some men wind up with women who are more attractive than they are, and these incels think they should be able to hit the jackpot, too. The problem is that ugly guys with cute girlfriends are just overall better people than they are. They treat women like human beings you get to know over time, and then see what develops.

        We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away.

        https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/longer-acquaintance-levels-the-romantic-playing-field.html

        “We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away.”

        So true. Nature imbued women with this defense mechanism called mate selection.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        So true. Nature imbued women with this defense mechanism called mate selection.
         
        Men who are primarily interested in us for sex are bad news. What happens when a hotter "piece of ass" comes along?
        , @L Woods
        And right on queue, the old farts posturing. You'd be an incel cleaning toilets at McDonald's if you were born in my generational cohort, you geriatric twit. Has there ever been a generation with less worthwhile to say to the world (rhetorical: there hasn't).
        , @Anonymous
        You're forgetting that civility and civilized life in which men voluntarily restrain themselves is not natural and not some fixed, immutable fact or feature of nature. Nature has also imbued men, and males of all species, with the power and ability to wield force and violence in the pursuit of food, sex, mates, etc.
      62. @Talha
        Mennonites are the furthest thing from Templars you can find, which is why I mentioned if that was the only other option. If we are honest, a reconstituted Templar cadre would go far more postal on the target-rich environment of atheist apostates/heathens. The Templars actually negotiated terms and treaties with Muslim polities. Muslims may have theological differences, but we don’t do this kind of comedy about the Son of Mary (pbuh):
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=B6zorQM2xOM

        Priorities...

        keep our bacon and wine.
         
        Those are completely protected rights for non-Muslim minorities and have been for centuries. Even a state like Pakistan where Christians often get the short end of the stick, these are protected rights via the constitution. Look up the Murree Brewery.

        They are simply not acceptable for jizyah payment in lieu of performing military services for males. Women and kids don’t have to worry about this.

        Peace.

        I’ll die before I bow down to a Muslim government.

        • Replies: @Talha
        I should hope so, only God deserves to be worshipped.

        Peace.
      63. @SunBakedSuburb
        "We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away."

        So true. Nature imbued women with this defense mechanism called mate selection.

        So true. Nature imbued women with this defense mechanism called mate selection.

        Men who are primarily interested in us for sex are bad news. What happens when a hotter “piece of ass” comes along?

        • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
        You're being an absolutist woman about this.

        Any normal man is primarily interested in a woman for sex. Get used to it.

        But a quality (e.g. Christian) man won't have sex with a woman unless she fits certain other qualifications. For me, I can think of some really hot girls I wouldn't want to marry (and make love to) because I find them dull. Even if I could get her, why would I want her? A normal quality man gets aroused by a girl with good wit to match her looks.

        Sex binds people together.

        And, yes, this is a polite way of saying that one way for a woman to stop a man from acting out on his desire for other women is to be nice to him and help him make sex frequent and enjoyable. That way the bonds will be tighter as the man ages. Also, this is yet another reason to never use contraception. More kids equals more things to occupy a man's attention.

        You're right to say that men have to evaluate a woman for more than just her sexual appeal, but the idea that we're anything other than primarily interested in women for sex ..... that's just a joke, frankly.
      64. @Talha
        My teachers have taught me that contentment can indeed be found in the world, but happiness is elusive and ephemeral. This world wasn’t made for happiness, it is the abode of trials (part of its purpose is to break your heart so you don’t become too attached to it) - it simply is not meant for that. The next life; that is a different matter altogether.

        Kierkegaard is always good to hear from.

        Peace.

        “This world wasn’t made for happiness, it is the abode of trials …”

        Accepting this truth can bring a measure of peace.

        • Replies: @Talha
        Indeed...avoid misplacing false hopes and you will avoid being disappointed:
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=h2dWvyY481I

        Peace.
      65. It’s hard for me to believe there is even such a thing as an incel if the term literally means “involuntary celibate”. Given the availability of prostitutes, anyone who wants to really have sex and is willing to put out the minimum effort and/or money can have it. I think incels are actually those guys who can’t have the girl they specifically want with her picking up the tab.

        • Replies: @Dumbo
        Prostitutes can offer sex but not companionship. Yes, young men overvalue sex, but in the end, other things in a relationship are more rewarding and what they really need. Also, sex with prostitutes is usually low-status. Even though politicians do it all the time.

        I think "incel" really means a young guy without a girlfriend. A guy who invites many girls out and they refuse, they "don't have time" or "they are not ready", so they end up creating resentment of women in feneral. Being more of an introvert for most of my life, I can partly understand them, although it is also a fact that many of those type of guys don't even take care of themselves or try to improve themselves, don't learn how to socialize, don't even dress well, I mean, you have at least to make an effort, it may be hard to get a girl, but not impossible by any means.

        The Staceys may be having sex with the Chads, but the non-Staceys are getting ignored, by the very non-Chads who are the subjects of this pity party.
         
        The problem is that some non-Staceys are makeing themselves unattractive, through feminism, obesity, blue or pink hair, or just their attitude.

        I just saw the other day a girl walking on the street, not particularly attractive but not ugly either, a nice average young white girl in her 20s. However, her whole body was covered in ugly, cartoonish tattoos, and she also had a nose ring.
      66. @SunBakedSuburb
        I'm a middle-age man and am bemused by this incel phenomenon. There have always been guys who struck out with women, and those of us who were more fortunate still had our fallow periods. Digital screen addiction and the ability to connect with their fellow broken hearts and wallow in pity and despair doesn't help these guys.

        "Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power."

        Porn actually emasculates men, and can lead them further down the incel pit.

        “As a middle aged man,” you have no idea what you’re talking about. Boomers should just be flat forbidden from commenting on the modern dating market — they’re utterly clueless. All they can do is chortle about the “losers” and switch back to Fox News.

        • Replies: @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
        From reading his comments, the only thing he gets right is that porn is bad. Otherwise you're correct - he knows nothing about the modern dating market.
      67. @SunBakedSuburb
        "We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away."

        So true. Nature imbued women with this defense mechanism called mate selection.

        And right on queue, the old farts posturing. You’d be an incel cleaning toilets at McDonald’s if you were born in my generational cohort, you geriatric twit. Has there ever been a generation with less worthwhile to say to the world (rhetorical: there hasn’t).

        • Replies: @SunBakedSuburb
        Agree with you on Boomers (I'm Gen X). The social scene for white men was better in the 1980s when I came of age. But the situation between men and women remains essentially the same. Millennial and Gen Z males tend to have lower testosterone levels than their Boomer and Gen X elders. Women, biologically more sophisticated than men, can detect this. Maybe that's your problem.
      68. @Kirt
        It's hard for me to believe there is even such a thing as an incel if the term literally means "involuntary celibate". Given the availability of prostitutes, anyone who wants to really have sex and is willing to put out the minimum effort and/or money can have it. I think incels are actually those guys who can't have the girl they specifically want with her picking up the tab.

        Prostitutes can offer sex but not companionship. Yes, young men overvalue sex, but in the end, other things in a relationship are more rewarding and what they really need. Also, sex with prostitutes is usually low-status. Even though politicians do it all the time.

        I think “incel” really means a young guy without a girlfriend. A guy who invites many girls out and they refuse, they “don’t have time” or “they are not ready”, so they end up creating resentment of women in feneral. Being more of an introvert for most of my life, I can partly understand them, although it is also a fact that many of those type of guys don’t even take care of themselves or try to improve themselves, don’t learn how to socialize, don’t even dress well, I mean, you have at least to make an effort, it may be hard to get a girl, but not impossible by any means.

        The Staceys may be having sex with the Chads, but the non-Staceys are getting ignored, by the very non-Chads who are the subjects of this pity party.

        The problem is that some non-Staceys are makeing themselves unattractive, through feminism, obesity, blue or pink hair, or just their attitude.

        I just saw the other day a girl walking on the street, not particularly attractive but not ugly either, a nice average young white girl in her 20s. However, her whole body was covered in ugly, cartoonish tattoos, and she also had a nose ring.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        The problem is that some non-Staceys are makeing themselves unattractive, through feminism, obesity, blue or pink hair, or just their attitude.
         
        I get that men don't like what women look like when food is cheap and abundant and our lifestyles are sedentary, but let's be honest about exactly what the problem is.
      69. Women, when given the latitude to do so, reward the worst in men, both between and within individuals — everything that is base, animal, foul, worthless and evil, that suited to claw one’s way atop a hierarchy of baboons or chimpanzees. It’s not worth arguing this point: it’s obviously, self-evidentally true, and everyone reading this knows it. The only reason to defend the supposed sanctity of female “choice” is posturing and malice — the opportunity to punch down to some anonymous random on the internet. It’s that base, and that petty, and why I have zero patience for it. The concept of self-serving virtue signaling is familiar enough around these parts when it comes to race, for example, but the Women are Wonderful Bias means it lives on among the supposed dissidents in these parts. Get over yourselves — the very fact that you read this site makes you as lowly as the rest of us.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        . It’s not worth arguing this point: it’s obviously, self-evidentally true, and everyone reading this knows it.
         
        LOL
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Success, dominance, self-confidence--isn't it hyperbolic to describe these things as "the worst in men"?
      70. @Rosie

        Actually, porn increases inceldom.
         
        Agreed. Some men wind up with women who are more attractive than they are, and these incels think they should be able to hit the jackpot, too. The problem is that ugly guys with cute girlfriends are just overall better people than they are. They treat women like human beings you get to know over time, and then see what develops.

        We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away.

        https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/longer-acquaintance-levels-the-romantic-playing-field.html

        They treat women like human beings you get to know over time, and then see what develops.

        This may have been true in the past, but it is less and less likely today. First of all, there are graphs showing that most couples today are formed from people who meet in online dating, not meeting in social activities, work, or through friends or family. (And I think we all know how online dating tends to be bad for average men.) So there are less opportunities for real interaction, and it has become more difficult for young men and women to meet naturally and slowly get into a relationship.

        Second, I think many women, because of feminism and other cultural issues, such as pop culture trash, have become more and more demanding in what they expect of a man, while at the same time taking less care of themselves, so that now you have the strange spectacle of fat tattooed feminists who believe that they have been “raped” if a guy who is not an alpha just looks at her. It is really bizarre.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        First of all, there are graphs showing that most couples today are formed from people who meet in online dating, not meeting in social activities, work, or through friends or family.
         
        And why is that?
      71. @Cloudbuster
        I'll die before I bow down to a Muslim government.

        I should hope so, only God deserves to be worshipped.

        Peace.

      72. @Dumbo

        They treat women like human beings you get to know over time, and then see what develops.
         
        This may have been true in the past, but it is less and less likely today. First of all, there are graphs showing that most couples today are formed from people who meet in online dating, not meeting in social activities, work, or through friends or family. (And I think we all know how online dating tends to be bad for average men.) So there are less opportunities for real interaction, and it has become more difficult for young men and women to meet naturally and slowly get into a relationship.

        https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-H0KmyfWFE4k/XO3ZNR8pmCI/AAAAAAAAEi0/3s3FOP43He4tvtOGVJ-sA1diyW7oQR_hQCLcBGAs/s1600/_88183678_hetero_couples_624.png

        Second, I think many women, because of feminism and other cultural issues, such as pop culture trash, have become more and more demanding in what they expect of a man, while at the same time taking less care of themselves, so that now you have the strange spectacle of fat tattooed feminists who believe that they have been "raped" if a guy who is not an alpha just looks at her. It is really bizarre.

        First of all, there are graphs showing that most couples today are formed from people who meet in online dating, not meeting in social activities, work, or through friends or family.

        And why is that?

      73. @L Woods
        Women, when given the latitude to do so, reward the worst in men, both between and within individuals -- everything that is base, animal, foul, worthless and evil, that suited to claw one's way atop a hierarchy of baboons or chimpanzees. It's not worth arguing this point: it's obviously, self-evidentally true, and everyone reading this knows it. The only reason to defend the supposed sanctity of female "choice" is posturing and malice -- the opportunity to punch down to some anonymous random on the internet. It's that base, and that petty, and why I have zero patience for it. The concept of self-serving virtue signaling is familiar enough around these parts when it comes to race, for example, but the Women are Wonderful Bias means it lives on among the supposed dissidents in these parts. Get over yourselves -- the very fact that you read this site makes you as lowly as the rest of us.

        . It’s not worth arguing this point: it’s obviously, self-evidentally true, and everyone reading this knows it.

        LOL

      74. @Dumbo
        Prostitutes can offer sex but not companionship. Yes, young men overvalue sex, but in the end, other things in a relationship are more rewarding and what they really need. Also, sex with prostitutes is usually low-status. Even though politicians do it all the time.

        I think "incel" really means a young guy without a girlfriend. A guy who invites many girls out and they refuse, they "don't have time" or "they are not ready", so they end up creating resentment of women in feneral. Being more of an introvert for most of my life, I can partly understand them, although it is also a fact that many of those type of guys don't even take care of themselves or try to improve themselves, don't learn how to socialize, don't even dress well, I mean, you have at least to make an effort, it may be hard to get a girl, but not impossible by any means.

        The Staceys may be having sex with the Chads, but the non-Staceys are getting ignored, by the very non-Chads who are the subjects of this pity party.
         
        The problem is that some non-Staceys are makeing themselves unattractive, through feminism, obesity, blue or pink hair, or just their attitude.

        I just saw the other day a girl walking on the street, not particularly attractive but not ugly either, a nice average young white girl in her 20s. However, her whole body was covered in ugly, cartoonish tattoos, and she also had a nose ring.

        The problem is that some non-Staceys are makeing themselves unattractive, through feminism, obesity, blue or pink hair, or just their attitude.

        I get that men don’t like what women look like when food is cheap and abundant and our lifestyles are sedentary, but let’s be honest about exactly what the problem is.

      75. @SunBakedSuburb
        "This world wasn't made for happiness, it is the abode of trials ..."

        Accepting this truth can bring a measure of peace.

        Indeed…avoid misplacing false hopes and you will avoid being disappointed:
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=h2dWvyY481I

        Peace.

      76. There are no few young men who are “waiting for marriage” but who, owing to the corrupt state of our existence, don’t have the money to marry the kind of woman he finds attractive.

        Not that I would know anything about this situation.

      77. @Rosie

        So true. Nature imbued women with this defense mechanism called mate selection.
         
        Men who are primarily interested in us for sex are bad news. What happens when a hotter "piece of ass" comes along?

        You’re being an absolutist woman about this.

        Any normal man is primarily interested in a woman for sex. Get used to it.

        But a quality (e.g. Christian) man won’t have sex with a woman unless she fits certain other qualifications. For me, I can think of some really hot girls I wouldn’t want to marry (and make love to) because I find them dull. Even if I could get her, why would I want her? A normal quality man gets aroused by a girl with good wit to match her looks.

        Sex binds people together.

        And, yes, this is a polite way of saying that one way for a woman to stop a man from acting out on his desire for other women is to be nice to him and help him make sex frequent and enjoyable. That way the bonds will be tighter as the man ages. Also, this is yet another reason to never use contraception. More kids equals more things to occupy a man’s attention.

        You’re right to say that men have to evaluate a woman for more than just her sexual appeal, but the idea that we’re anything other than primarily interested in women for sex ….. that’s just a joke, frankly.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        You’re right to say that men have to evaluate a woman for more than just her sexual appeal, but the idea that we’re anything other than primarily interested in women for sex ….. that’s just a joke, frankly.
         
        Then you'll have to learn how to pretend, at least.
      78. @L Woods
        "Totally unrealistic expectations" are female projection -- there's nothing "unrealistic" about not being fat. If men do have "unrealistic expectations," it's the expectation of finding a "best friend," something that isn't really possible or even desirable with women.

        America used to be a country of moderation when it comes to the size and health of our women. The interior of our country used to have plenty of healthy women of at least moderate attractiveness.

        Today we are a country of extremes.

        I am always dismayed when I travel from my rural home into the cities, particularly Washington, to find that all of the attractive women have been vacuumed, as it were, by the forces of careerism into the cities. The elites have found a way to hoard all the attractive white women.

        But, yes, you are right. The fat people of this country – including men – expect us to accept their fatness as “normal.” It’s ridiculous. I’ll have none of it.

        • Replies: @Abelard Lindsey
        This guy's blog has useful advice on losing the weight and getting into shape:

        https://roguehealthandfitness.com/

        I have also found that chelation with ALA (alpha-lipoic-acid) also worked for me:

        www.noamalgam.com

        The best place for supplements is LEF at:

        www.lef.org

        It seems to me it would be useful to shift this discussion over to why obesity has become so prevalent in the U.S. over the past 30 years. I think a lot of this "incel" problem is due to nothing more than so many young people (both boys and girls) being overweight and out of shape.
      79. @Talha
        My teachers have taught me that contentment can indeed be found in the world, but happiness is elusive and ephemeral. This world wasn’t made for happiness, it is the abode of trials (part of its purpose is to break your heart so you don’t become too attached to it) - it simply is not meant for that. The next life; that is a different matter altogether.

        Kierkegaard is always good to hear from.

        Peace.

        Isn’t this just the fancy four-bit way of saying that the best things in life require effort and determination? That’s certainly one lesson life has taught me.

        • Replies: @Talha
        Well yes, but in essence, it is a recognition that everything in this world is ultimately ephemeral and can only be punctuated by happiness. Keeping that in mind puts everything in perspective. The richest man in the world and the poorest both enter their graves with the same possessions that are of any further use to them.

        Death is the destroyer of both dreams and delusions.

        Peace.
      80. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
        @L Woods
        This is widely assumed, but I just don't see in every day life that women are gravitating towards middle class providers (at least while they're still in their prime reproductive years). Not a week goes by in my Virginia exurb where I don't see an attractive teenaged/early twenties girl with an aspiring rapper or ethnically ambiguous chad in tow.

        Yes, women now have access to material comforts and amenities basically just for breathing through welfare and employment. A male provider is no longer necessary for this. Under this new baseline level, women have greater security to take risks, and the level is no longer good enough for women. A potential mate has to be able to provide above and beyond this level, which women can now obtain just for breathing through the government and jobs.

        This is why you see young women now in their prime years engaging in actual or de facto prostitution, or buying the equivalent of lottery tickets by trying to snag very wealthy, high status men that can provide the exotic, ultra luxury lifestyles they see on Instagram, or seeking out underclass types who have the opposite of a provider strategy.

        This is an unsustainable system though, because it depends on taxing ordinary men, who are also needed to maintain basic infrastructure and keep the peace, both internally with domestic police and externally with the military, and affirmative action in favor of women and against men in employment.

      81. @L Woods
        "As a middle aged man," you have no idea what you're talking about. Boomers should just be flat forbidden from commenting on the modern dating market -- they're utterly clueless. All they can do is chortle about the "losers" and switch back to Fox News.

        From reading his comments, the only thing he gets right is that porn is bad. Otherwise you’re correct – he knows nothing about the modern dating market.

      82. @Disordered Deacon
        i agree. i think the late 90s and early 00s had simultaneous increases of both male thirst and female thotness. the increase of internet (aka porn), sexualized pop stars (Britney and Madonna making out, Janet Jackson nipplegate), trash tv shows like survivor and big brother and eventually all the way to the bachelor/ette and jersey shore to show us how to date. hard rock dying in popularity and getting dumber or emo, while white girls start getting tramp stamps and dancing to black music (usher's yeah with lil jon - hey at least he flew Dixie). more importantly white boys learned "manhood" from the aforementioned media or grand theft auto san andreas (or the lack thereof from the Disney Channel or the stranger types of anime - 90s and 00s tv is a topic on its own), and got their humor from chapelle, comedy central, adult swim. blogs and forums were freer but also smaller, only true nerds were there. as can be told from the stats, incels were still then in manageable numbers, if concerning - because, they were not becoming the usual and relatively quieter monks and nuns, but rather cat people and internet hounds...

        when obama came, he was propelled partly by the gen x that thought the time had come to loosen everything up; so when the teens above became young adults, the artsy ones went full hipster and occupy, the preppy ones went full globalist career ahead, the ghetto ones went full ghetto, and even the rightwing ones went more radical (the Trumpian youth wing was started in those dark years). among these developments, internet dating came along as well as social media, and as the stats prove, there was a natural drop in incelness as people danced to party rock anthem, started going to festivals, having stronger drugs, and having sex earlier, faster, and harder. i sincerely believe 2012's 3% figure is accurate, and this in spite of my personal experience lol. but do remember okcupid, pof were in apogee, tinder just had started, and facebook and twitter were not yet populated by everyone and their personal spy. it was the zenith of edm culture, and drake had just appeared.

        and then, from 2013 onward... and then what, you may ask? i think that the excessive access to everything made everyone weary. excessive texting/thirst from men, excessive flaunting and teasing from women, excessive access to hardcore porn and sexualized media, all in your hands as Steve Jobs wanted. 50 shades was on theaters, and that's just the rim of the proverbial hole lol. add metoo dramas and sobbing whether real or not, pussyhat influence (and that of its reverse, nerdy male celibates), and increasing money issues for both after graduating college (as well as money requirements from ladies). in the real world, loud clubs not having the appeal that they used to if flirting becomes weary and grinding is discouraged, regular date activities seeming increasingly boring as media sells you ever increasing packages of happiness (example, how off the charts weddings' cost is now), workplaces becoming evermore sterile, drugs becoming stronger and more available so you do not want to leave the house as often (while apps increasingly deliver, not to worry).

        a special mention has to be made to the lgbt propaganda group that took men that were already weak boys and teens (from all the 90s couch potatoing and later drugs) and made it acceptable to, first, become metrosexuals and/or other caricatures when dating and dancing. then normalized not playing sports or doing housework or handiwork (relatedly, the learn to code mantra appeared). up til now, men were boyishly fine with this. then they normalized not only coed spaces more than before (think boy scouts) but mixed in the lgbt, and thus the females eventually went over their heads as they increased in numbers and cliques; with their excessive natural desire to compete for the men being groomed by the cat ladies and the increasing grrlpower circles in academia and elsewhere into competing against the men (when obama, michelle of course, started putting up the ads of "tell her she is smart too" - but this went back decades, as a kid i remember the powerpuff girls and other seemingly innocent shows that then went astray or had hidden messages of decadence, what with them being created by post modern art students). thus in this spirit of poisonous competition, groomed by a few decades of grrlpower and toxic masculinity ideas, and stewed by the terrible dating market experiences, these now/new young women tell these men to troll them not only that a gay is as manly or even more decent than him, but also that trans is beautiful and so is fat, and that polyamory and interracial swinging and being cool wine aunts and gamer uncles is fine.

        and these women say that if these men put up with all of this, maybe they will have sex... but also they have to fulfill the rest of the laundry list, and even then risk losing it all to a cool jerk/foreigner that treats her worse. rinse and repeat, it will be fine. meanwhile the men want a bad chick pornstar that also does not nag yet somehow has kids, yet somehow works so you don't have to work as hard... and yet you do. not to mention, after the honeymoon period, she is too weary and tired of the nice guy attitude for the pornstar sex anyway, and even more so if she does not get the grrlpower dream career and high powered hubby she wanted. but do not worry, buy her more stuff next anniversary and she will be fine and may even pop a kid before tying off the tubes. and you will get a brand new lease, a new gaming console or another consumerist habit, and all will be fine.

        or, separate, and allow consenting adults to choose to be alone. and then remain alone. but not to worry, being alone is fine, do not let those heteronormatives have their say.

        yes. all fine. and sterile, as can be seen in the stats.

        true, this generation remembers 9/11, sent thousands to those awful sandpits even without knowing why (some now were babies the day the towers fell), and now suffers the student debt if employed/graduated at all, and much loneliness and other issues. and who knows the margin of error of that poll. but, that does not mean we cannot do anything to change this, instead of browsing endlessly what to watch on netflix. i hope we do change. perhaps reinstalling the Pauline concept of male headship would be a good start.

        Put down the crack pipe, take a deep breath, and step away from the computer for 30 minutes.

      83. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
        America used to be a country of moderation when it comes to the size and health of our women. The interior of our country used to have plenty of healthy women of at least moderate attractiveness.

        Today we are a country of extremes.

        I am always dismayed when I travel from my rural home into the cities, particularly Washington, to find that all of the attractive women have been vacuumed, as it were, by the forces of careerism into the cities. The elites have found a way to hoard all the attractive white women.

        But, yes, you are right. The fat people of this country - including men - expect us to accept their fatness as "normal." It's ridiculous. I'll have none of it.

        This guy’s blog has useful advice on losing the weight and getting into shape:

        https://roguehealthandfitness.com/

        I have also found that chelation with ALA (alpha-lipoic-acid) also worked for me:

        http://www.noamalgam.com

        The best place for supplements is LEF at:

        http://www.lef.org

        It seems to me it would be useful to shift this discussion over to why obesity has become so prevalent in the U.S. over the past 30 years. I think a lot of this “incel” problem is due to nothing more than so many young people (both boys and girls) being overweight and out of shape.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        It seems to me it would be useful to shift this discussion over to why obesity has become so prevalent in the U.S. over the past 30 years. I think a lot of this “incel” problem is due to nothing more than so many young people (both boys and girls) being overweight and out of shape.
         
        BINGO!

        We need a non dehumanizing rediscovery of the importance of health for it's own sake, the joy of inhabiting a healthy and powerful body. Physical attractiveness, and sex, would follow from that.

        For that, we would need a national socialist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Dennis Mangan is great. He used to have a blog entitled Mangan's Miscellany that was one of my favorite reads. From strength to strength, that guy.
      84. Anonymous[672] • Disclaimer says:
        @Dumbo
        There are many reasons why people won't have sex. I think there were always people who for some reason or other were left out of the sexual market. However, with feminism and female independence this became a much worse issue. As someone else said here, now that women have financial independence and even support from the State if they are single moms, they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men.

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem.

        Now it is true that there are some "incels" who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don't really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there's not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages.

        I've read an article about some Japanese dude who "married" a cartoon character because he couldn't get the attention of any woman. And I've read that in Japan now 1 out of 4 men will never have sex (or something to that effect).

        But in Japan until the fifties marriages arranged or semi-arranged by parents were the norm (just watch any Ozu movie), and it worked for them. So maybe they should go back to arranged marriages.

        As for the West, it is more difficult for this to happen, our treatment of women has always been more free, despite what women say about the "patriarchy". I've heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.

        I like the culling of men approach. I say we start with you.

      85. Anonymous[672] • Disclaimer says:
        @SunBakedSuburb
        I'm a middle-age man and am bemused by this incel phenomenon. There have always been guys who struck out with women, and those of us who were more fortunate still had our fallow periods. Digital screen addiction and the ability to connect with their fellow broken hearts and wallow in pity and despair doesn't help these guys.

        "Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power."

        Porn actually emasculates men, and can lead them further down the incel pit.

        Ok Joe Biden.

      86. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
        @SunBakedSuburb
        "We can smell the desperation on these pathetic sex-obsessed jokers a mile away."

        So true. Nature imbued women with this defense mechanism called mate selection.

        You’re forgetting that civility and civilized life in which men voluntarily restrain themselves is not natural and not some fixed, immutable fact or feature of nature. Nature has also imbued men, and males of all species, with the power and ability to wield force and violence in the pursuit of food, sex, mates, etc.

      87. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

        What Men Know That Women Don’t

      88. @Talha
        My teachers have taught me that contentment can indeed be found in the world, but happiness is elusive and ephemeral. This world wasn’t made for happiness, it is the abode of trials (part of its purpose is to break your heart so you don’t become too attached to it) - it simply is not meant for that. The next life; that is a different matter altogether.

        Kierkegaard is always good to hear from.

        Peace.

        I haven’t commented enough lately to give you an agree, but I think you’re completely right. I don’t think life in this world is about happiness or getting what you deserve, even though it is possible to find some kind of happiness for most of us.

      89. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan
        You're being an absolutist woman about this.

        Any normal man is primarily interested in a woman for sex. Get used to it.

        But a quality (e.g. Christian) man won't have sex with a woman unless she fits certain other qualifications. For me, I can think of some really hot girls I wouldn't want to marry (and make love to) because I find them dull. Even if I could get her, why would I want her? A normal quality man gets aroused by a girl with good wit to match her looks.

        Sex binds people together.

        And, yes, this is a polite way of saying that one way for a woman to stop a man from acting out on his desire for other women is to be nice to him and help him make sex frequent and enjoyable. That way the bonds will be tighter as the man ages. Also, this is yet another reason to never use contraception. More kids equals more things to occupy a man's attention.

        You're right to say that men have to evaluate a woman for more than just her sexual appeal, but the idea that we're anything other than primarily interested in women for sex ..... that's just a joke, frankly.

        You’re right to say that men have to evaluate a woman for more than just her sexual appeal, but the idea that we’re anything other than primarily interested in women for sex ….. that’s just a joke, frankly.

        Then you’ll have to learn how to pretend, at least.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        You've inadvertently hit on some truth there, Rosie. That's what a lot of that "game" stuff is about - pretending that you don't really give a damn about them. I suppose it works because of people like you that get turned off by knowing men like women mostly for those certain parts they've got. I've always gone with "honesty is the best policy", but it really doesn't work with most women.

        I've written that before here to you, I think. To get along better with women, a man has got to be more of a bullshitter (which I don't like being) and, just as importantly, he's got to be able to understand that lots of what she says is lies that she must tell per her nature. The hard part is just to accept the lies, don't correct her, and keep in mind that at certain times (something to do with the moon) the lies flow more freely, and you must get your mind to ignore 90% of it without getting anxiety. It's for your own health and happiness - don't take them too seriously.

        Getting a best friend is a piece of cake in comparison, and you don't need a woman for that.
      90. @Abelard Lindsey
        This guy's blog has useful advice on losing the weight and getting into shape:

        https://roguehealthandfitness.com/

        I have also found that chelation with ALA (alpha-lipoic-acid) also worked for me:

        www.noamalgam.com

        The best place for supplements is LEF at:

        www.lef.org

        It seems to me it would be useful to shift this discussion over to why obesity has become so prevalent in the U.S. over the past 30 years. I think a lot of this "incel" problem is due to nothing more than so many young people (both boys and girls) being overweight and out of shape.

        It seems to me it would be useful to shift this discussion over to why obesity has become so prevalent in the U.S. over the past 30 years. I think a lot of this “incel” problem is due to nothing more than so many young people (both boys and girls) being overweight and out of shape.

        BINGO!

        We need a non dehumanizing rediscovery of the importance of health for it’s own sake, the joy of inhabiting a healthy and powerful body. Physical attractiveness, and sex, would follow from that.

        For that, we would need a national socialist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people.

        • Replies: @Dumbo
        I don't think people need to be reminded that it is better to have a healthy body, much less that a "national socialist government" would be needed to make such changes (are you trolling?).

        The problem is really just that people, and particularly Americans, eat way too much. It is really as simple as that. Even if you don't do much exercise, you don't get fat if you eat normal portions of food (if you're otherwise healthy and still relatively young). Of course, it also depends on your body type and other things, but, in general, if you don't eat too much you don't get too fat. (Being slightly overweight is OK, I mean people who are really obese.) On the other hand, the anorexic models promoted by the gay fashion industry are also a problem and not the body ideal.

        The other problem is cultural. Ugliness, be it in the form of tattoos, piercings, ugly clothes or hairstyles, or just plain fatness, is promoted. Yes "fat feminism" is a thing.

        https://electricliterature.com/virgie-tovars-reading-list-for-the-fat-babe-feminist-revolution/
        , @Audacious Epigone
        National socialist? Really, must you?

        How about a populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people? Or just a government that does?
      91. @Abelard Lindsey
        Isn't this just the fancy four-bit way of saying that the best things in life require effort and determination? That's certainly one lesson life has taught me.

        Well yes, but in essence, it is a recognition that everything in this world is ultimately ephemeral and can only be punctuated by happiness. Keeping that in mind puts everything in perspective. The richest man in the world and the poorest both enter their graves with the same possessions that are of any further use to them.

        Death is the destroyer of both dreams and delusions.

        Peace.

      92. @Rosie

        It seems to me it would be useful to shift this discussion over to why obesity has become so prevalent in the U.S. over the past 30 years. I think a lot of this “incel” problem is due to nothing more than so many young people (both boys and girls) being overweight and out of shape.
         
        BINGO!

        We need a non dehumanizing rediscovery of the importance of health for it's own sake, the joy of inhabiting a healthy and powerful body. Physical attractiveness, and sex, would follow from that.

        For that, we would need a national socialist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people.

        I don’t think people need to be reminded that it is better to have a healthy body, much less that a “national socialist government” would be needed to make such changes (are you trolling?).

        The problem is really just that people, and particularly Americans, eat way too much. It is really as simple as that. Even if you don’t do much exercise, you don’t get fat if you eat normal portions of food (if you’re otherwise healthy and still relatively young). Of course, it also depends on your body type and other things, but, in general, if you don’t eat too much you don’t get too fat. (Being slightly overweight is OK, I mean people who are really obese.) On the other hand, the anorexic models promoted by the gay fashion industry are also a problem and not the body ideal.

        The other problem is cultural. Ugliness, be it in the form of tattoos, piercings, ugly clothes or hairstyles, or just plain fatness, is promoted. Yes “fat feminism” is a thing.

        https://electricliterature.com/virgie-tovars-reading-list-for-the-fat-babe-feminist-revolution/

        • Replies: @Rosie

        It is really as simple as that.
         
        Absurd. If it were simple, we wouldn't be having thos conversation.

        Does anyone ever wonder:

        Why we have to work such long hours when so many are out of work.
        Why we spend hours a day commuting rather than working out at the gym.
        Why we watch sports on TV rather than play sports.
        Why kids can't walk the neighborhood.

        Our modern, sedentary lifestyles are not a fact of life. They are the result of policies that could be changed if the government saw us as full-spectrum human beings rather than consumers and worker drones.
        , @AaronB
        Stephan Guyenet has solved the obesity problem.

        As someone who has traveled and lived abroad for long periods and has seen first hand the eating habits of thin countries and people, I can attest to the correctness of his theories.

        We need to stop all the fads and return to basics. It's not hard once you understand it.
      93. @Disordered Deacon
        i understand, as jizyah we have some rights.

        some.

        you might understand the apprehension, then. even if we keep our bacon and wine.
        just like i understand the mutual hate for Maher we seem to happily share.

        the Templars usually negotiated when needed, however. meaning, there had been too much bloodshed already. nevertheless you get my point. i guess AE picked Mennonite because they seem like the vaunted fertility ideal for non-Catholic traditionalists - and yes, that seems an oxymoron to me too.

        some.

        I would say most. Yes, a non-Muslim citizen never has full-enfranchisement, but if they don’t publicly blaspheme or commit treason or try to marry our women, things should go relatively smoothly. In fact, most Muslim countries have fairly decent legal frameworks for non-Muslim citizens that do not commit crimes. The major problem is actually not what’s on paper, the bigger problem is that we have a very serious rule-of-law issue on our hands and extremists that want to take the law into their own hands. That is where a lot of the abuses occur (honestly they end up beating up on fellow Muslims that don’t agree with them as well). If this kind of phenomenon arises in a Muslim-majority nation in the West, there will be major problems for sure.

        The only political restrictions I endorse in a Muslim polity is to keep non-Muslims out of top, critical government/military positions. I have no problem with them as governors, cabinet positions, bureaucratic heads or even justices for the secular/civil courts.

        you might understand the apprehension, then.

        Absolutely, it’s never preferable to have to negotiate the rules from a position of less than even terms.

        Peace.

      94. @Dumbo
        I don't think people need to be reminded that it is better to have a healthy body, much less that a "national socialist government" would be needed to make such changes (are you trolling?).

        The problem is really just that people, and particularly Americans, eat way too much. It is really as simple as that. Even if you don't do much exercise, you don't get fat if you eat normal portions of food (if you're otherwise healthy and still relatively young). Of course, it also depends on your body type and other things, but, in general, if you don't eat too much you don't get too fat. (Being slightly overweight is OK, I mean people who are really obese.) On the other hand, the anorexic models promoted by the gay fashion industry are also a problem and not the body ideal.

        The other problem is cultural. Ugliness, be it in the form of tattoos, piercings, ugly clothes or hairstyles, or just plain fatness, is promoted. Yes "fat feminism" is a thing.

        https://electricliterature.com/virgie-tovars-reading-list-for-the-fat-babe-feminist-revolution/

        It is really as simple as that.

        Absurd. If it were simple, we wouldn’t be having thos conversation.

        Does anyone ever wonder:

        Why we have to work such long hours when so many are out of work.
        Why we spend hours a day commuting rather than working out at the gym.
        Why we watch sports on TV rather than play sports.
        Why kids can’t walk the neighborhood.

        Our modern, sedentary lifestyles are not a fact of life. They are the result of policies that could be changed if the government saw us as full-spectrum human beings rather than consumers and worker drones.

        • Replies: @Rosie
        Increased leisure and active recreation must follow increased productivity and prosperity, or else people will get fat. It's as simple as that.

        I suspect the woman-bashers are controlled opposition, possibly paid shills, deliberately trying to prevent dissidents from asking these questions that YPTB don't want asked. Better to have the bulls and sows at each other's throats.
      95. And yet the stratum of society likeliest to hurl “incel” as an epithet all look like this

        unless they more closely resemble

        Ipso fatso.

        • Replies: @216
        Its a manosphere heresy, but so-called "Beta game" does work, it just costs you a piece of yourself.
        , @Anonymoose
        God they all look the same and they look so god damn punchable. Just looking at them makes me want to punch their teeth out.
      96. @Rosie

        It is really as simple as that.
         
        Absurd. If it were simple, we wouldn't be having thos conversation.

        Does anyone ever wonder:

        Why we have to work such long hours when so many are out of work.
        Why we spend hours a day commuting rather than working out at the gym.
        Why we watch sports on TV rather than play sports.
        Why kids can't walk the neighborhood.

        Our modern, sedentary lifestyles are not a fact of life. They are the result of policies that could be changed if the government saw us as full-spectrum human beings rather than consumers and worker drones.

        Increased leisure and active recreation must follow increased productivity and prosperity, or else people will get fat. It’s as simple as that.

        I suspect the woman-bashers are controlled opposition, possibly paid shills, deliberately trying to prevent dissidents from asking these questions that YPTB don’t want asked. Better to have the bulls and sows at each other’s throats.

        • Replies: @216
        The manosphere is one of the main components of the Dissident Right, the other components being the remnats of the Alt-Right, Gamergate and the old paleocons.

        The wider community of the dissident movements only includes one main female community, the TERFs, who still primarily identify as leftist.

        As I said of you before, your "white national socialist tradcon feminism" is a Peoples Front of Judea. You antagonize practically every community of interest, while doing next to nothing to encourage responsible female voices.
      97. How to make a young woman hate men:

        Tell them that men think your body is ugly unless you wage a constant war against your appetite to the point that all you think about is food all day.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

        Tell them that men think your body is ugly unless you wage a constant war against your appetite to the point that all you think about is food all day.
         
        No, no, no. "Women, young AND old, put down that ice cream and those cheeseballs, don those short shorts, and GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!"*



        This, from a guy who really shouldn't be the judge of girl's rear ends or any other parts (which is why he got it backwards.)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMWp4SWzspw

        .


        * Would it help if I told you that I am from the (National Socialist) Government and I'm here to help you? Hahaha... Good old Ronnie would get this, RIP.
      98. @Dumbo
        I don't think people need to be reminded that it is better to have a healthy body, much less that a "national socialist government" would be needed to make such changes (are you trolling?).

        The problem is really just that people, and particularly Americans, eat way too much. It is really as simple as that. Even if you don't do much exercise, you don't get fat if you eat normal portions of food (if you're otherwise healthy and still relatively young). Of course, it also depends on your body type and other things, but, in general, if you don't eat too much you don't get too fat. (Being slightly overweight is OK, I mean people who are really obese.) On the other hand, the anorexic models promoted by the gay fashion industry are also a problem and not the body ideal.

        The other problem is cultural. Ugliness, be it in the form of tattoos, piercings, ugly clothes or hairstyles, or just plain fatness, is promoted. Yes "fat feminism" is a thing.

        https://electricliterature.com/virgie-tovars-reading-list-for-the-fat-babe-feminist-revolution/

        Stephan Guyenet has solved the obesity problem.

        As someone who has traveled and lived abroad for long periods and has seen first hand the eating habits of thin countries and people, I can attest to the correctness of his theories.

        We need to stop all the fads and return to basics. It’s not hard once you understand it.

      99. @Rosie
        How to make a young woman hate men:

        Tell them that men think your body is ugly unless you wage a constant war against your appetite to the point that all you think about is food all day.

        Tell them that men think your body is ugly unless you wage a constant war against your appetite to the point that all you think about is food all day.

        No, no, no. “Women, young AND old, put down that ice cream and those cheeseballs, don those short shorts, and GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!”*

        This, from a guy who really shouldn’t be the judge of girl’s rear ends or any other parts (which is why he got it backwards.)

        .

        * Would it help if I told you that I am from the (National Socialist) Government and I’m here to help you? Hahaha… Good old Ronnie would get this, RIP.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        No, no, no. “Women, young AND old, put down that ice cream and those cheeseballs, don those short shorts, and GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!”*
         
        How about this:

        Let me help out with the laundry so we can take the kids out for bike ride and a picnic.
        , @MikeatMikedotMike
        https://youtu.be/YjC0vMIrOAk
      100. @Achmed E. Newman

        Tell them that men think your body is ugly unless you wage a constant war against your appetite to the point that all you think about is food all day.
         
        No, no, no. "Women, young AND old, put down that ice cream and those cheeseballs, don those short shorts, and GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!"*



        This, from a guy who really shouldn't be the judge of girl's rear ends or any other parts (which is why he got it backwards.)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMWp4SWzspw

        .


        * Would it help if I told you that I am from the (National Socialist) Government and I'm here to help you? Hahaha... Good old Ronnie would get this, RIP.

        No, no, no. “Women, young AND old, put down that ice cream and those cheeseballs, don those short shorts, and GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!”*

        How about this:

        Let me help out with the laundry so we can take the kids out for bike ride and a picnic.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        OK, and you go ahead and split those logs and fix the molding where the squirrels have been getting in, and change out my car's water pump while I get the laundry done. Let's go. Get er done!
      101. @Rosie

        How do you know that everyone who does not have sex is an “incel”? Ever heard about voluntary celibacy? Not everyone lives for nothing else that sex, even with non stop degenerate media pushing all sex all the time.
         
        With porn, why should these degenerate whiners bother leaving the house?

        Why would you call someone who does not have sex (for whatever reason) a degenerate?

        Do you not see the exploitation of women (and girls) in the production of porn?

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Why would you call someone who does not have sex (for whatever reason) a degenerate?
         
        They're not necessarily degenerates, but I assume most of these "incels" re consuming massive amounts of porn.
      102. @Rosie

        You’re right to say that men have to evaluate a woman for more than just her sexual appeal, but the idea that we’re anything other than primarily interested in women for sex ….. that’s just a joke, frankly.
         
        Then you'll have to learn how to pretend, at least.

        You’ve inadvertently hit on some truth there, Rosie. That’s what a lot of that “game” stuff is about – pretending that you don’t really give a damn about them. I suppose it works because of people like you that get turned off by knowing men like women mostly for those certain parts they’ve got. I’ve always gone with “honesty is the best policy”, but it really doesn’t work with most women.

        I’ve written that before here to you, I think. To get along better with women, a man has got to be more of a bullshitter (which I don’t like being) and, just as importantly, he’s got to be able to understand that lots of what she says is lies that she must tell per her nature. The hard part is just to accept the lies, don’t correct her, and keep in mind that at certain times (something to do with the moon) the lies flow more freely, and you must get your mind to ignore 90% of it without getting anxiety. It’s for your own health and happiness – don’t take them too seriously.

        Getting a best friend is a piece of cake in comparison, and you don’t need a woman for that.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        The hard part is just to accept the lies, don’t correct her, and keep in mind that at certain times (something to do with the moon) the lies flow more freely, and you must get your mind to ignore 90% of it without getting anxiety.
         
        Actually, it's often precisely then that we tell the truth.
      103. @Rosie

        No, no, no. “Women, young AND old, put down that ice cream and those cheeseballs, don those short shorts, and GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!”*
         
        How about this:

        Let me help out with the laundry so we can take the kids out for bike ride and a picnic.

        OK, and you go ahead and split those logs and fix the molding where the squirrels have been getting in, and change out my car’s water pump while I get the laundry done. Let’s go. Get er done!

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        Man, it's awful quiet around here .... oh, here comes the rinse cycle.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYTSVPS0pQU
      104. Audacious Epigone headline: Incel Epidemic

        Well, at least this latest epidemic won’t get more widespread via people having wanton reckless sex, so there’s that …

      105. @Rosie
        Percentage of incels in the population: 0%

        There is no such thing as an incel, but only men who won't join a club that will have them as a member.

        There are plenty of male incels. Some are “a bit backward” and live at home with their mums, others are ultra-bright, well-paid jobs but incurably nerdish. Such chaps would be easy prey for a plain girl, but you certainly couldn’t expect “sexy sons” from such a union, and the girl would have to make all the running.

        I worked with such a guy for ten years – bright chap – in that time his female counterpart (i.e. someone with zero experience and zero ability to flirt or ‘chat up’) found a husband and had a baby. His interactions with the opposite sex were strictly work related.

        But then being a shy, tongue-tied girl is not unattractive to men.

      106. @iffen
        Why would you call someone who does not have sex (for whatever reason) a degenerate?

        Do you not see the exploitation of women (and girls) in the production of porn?

        Why would you call someone who does not have sex (for whatever reason) a degenerate?

        They’re not necessarily degenerates, but I assume most of these “incels” re consuming massive amounts of porn.

        • Replies: @iffen
        Are you completely a-okay with the production and distributionn of porn?
      107. @Achmed E. Newman
        You've inadvertently hit on some truth there, Rosie. That's what a lot of that "game" stuff is about - pretending that you don't really give a damn about them. I suppose it works because of people like you that get turned off by knowing men like women mostly for those certain parts they've got. I've always gone with "honesty is the best policy", but it really doesn't work with most women.

        I've written that before here to you, I think. To get along better with women, a man has got to be more of a bullshitter (which I don't like being) and, just as importantly, he's got to be able to understand that lots of what she says is lies that she must tell per her nature. The hard part is just to accept the lies, don't correct her, and keep in mind that at certain times (something to do with the moon) the lies flow more freely, and you must get your mind to ignore 90% of it without getting anxiety. It's for your own health and happiness - don't take them too seriously.

        Getting a best friend is a piece of cake in comparison, and you don't need a woman for that.

        The hard part is just to accept the lies, don’t correct her, and keep in mind that at certain times (something to do with the moon) the lies flow more freely, and you must get your mind to ignore 90% of it without getting anxiety.

        Actually, it’s often precisely then that we tell the truth.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

        Actually, it’s often precisely then that we tell the truth.
         
        Yes, that's EXACTLY what your FEELINGS tell you, until you snap the hell out of it.
      108. @Rosie

        Why would you call someone who does not have sex (for whatever reason) a degenerate?
         
        They're not necessarily degenerates, but I assume most of these "incels" re consuming massive amounts of porn.

        Are you completely a-okay with the production and distributionn of porn?

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Are you completely a-okay with the production and distributionn of porn?
         
        Heck no. I would ban it if I could.
      109. @Achmed E. Newman

        Tell them that men think your body is ugly unless you wage a constant war against your appetite to the point that all you think about is food all day.
         
        No, no, no. "Women, young AND old, put down that ice cream and those cheeseballs, don those short shorts, and GET ON YOUR BIKES AND RIDE!"*



        This, from a guy who really shouldn't be the judge of girl's rear ends or any other parts (which is why he got it backwards.)

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMWp4SWzspw

        .


        * Would it help if I told you that I am from the (National Socialist) Government and I'm here to help you? Hahaha... Good old Ronnie would get this, RIP.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        LOL! The looser the waist band, the deeper the quicksand, or so I have read ... Big bottom's driving me out of my mind. How can I leave this behind?

        Thanks, I'll have to see this one again, Mike.
      110. @iffen
        Are you completely a-okay with the production and distributionn of porn?

        Are you completely a-okay with the production and distributionn of porn?

        Heck no. I would ban it if I could.

        • Replies: @iffen
        Then why would you present it as some sort of solution for incels?
      111. The problem is obesity. No man finds fatness attractive. Where I live in the UK a large percentage of women are really gross and an even larger percentage are sufficiently overweight to be thoroughly unsexy. They look like weightlifters, with their broad shoulders and fat arms. What gets me is how the really big ones get in such a state. Surely, when they reached two stones overweight they must have thought “I’m getting really fat, I must at least not put any more weight on”. I went to Great Yarmouth on the English coast a couple of years ago and they appear to have passed a law there that says that no women can be seen in public unless she is at least 15 stone.

      112. @MikeatMikedotMike
        https://youtu.be/YjC0vMIrOAk

        LOL! The looser the waist band, the deeper the quicksand, or so I have read … Big bottom’s driving me out of my mind. How can I leave this behind?

        Thanks, I’ll have to see this one again, Mike.

        • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
        It's in the top 10 of funniest movies ever that couldn't have been made today.
      113. @Rosie

        The hard part is just to accept the lies, don’t correct her, and keep in mind that at certain times (something to do with the moon) the lies flow more freely, and you must get your mind to ignore 90% of it without getting anxiety.
         
        Actually, it's often precisely then that we tell the truth.

        Actually, it’s often precisely then that we tell the truth.

        Yes, that’s EXACTLY what your FEELINGS tell you, until you snap the hell out of it.

      114. @Achmed E. Newman
        OK, and you go ahead and split those logs and fix the molding where the squirrels have been getting in, and change out my car's water pump while I get the laundry done. Let's go. Get er done!

        Man, it’s awful quiet around here …. oh, here comes the rinse cycle.

        • Replies: @MikeatMikedotMike
        Quiet, you say? Watch this with headphones: Check the gravity blast technique on the snare at around 2:30:

        https://youtu.be/SImHi16cwqc
      115. Meh.

        It’s really not that hard to get laid if you are a 7/10 or higher, are willing to take some good Tinder pictures, and have a decent personality. And hint: about 80% of men can be a 7/10 or higher if they try. Life has hierarchies; if you’re an unfortunately ugly guy that sucks but that’s how it goes.

        However, I say that the incel culture is more a reaction to modern feminism and degeneracy than it is to men actually not being able to get laid. Most men can (or could theoretically) get laid, but cannot form meaningful relationships with women, whose personalities are awful and whose pair bonding abilities are shot. So after a while it’s not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).

        You can finish through casual sex but it’s not nearly as good of a feeling as finishing during romantic sex. In fact it’s a dirty and gritty kind of feeling. It hasn’t happened to me, but I feel that if you do it enough it *will* take over your personality and you will become an ugly person.

        But tips for the sexually frustrated guys. I wouldn’t recommend it but if you want to get laid I can help:

        – don’t be ugly. Work out, wear decent clothes, get a fashy or manly haircut or whatever works. Women hate betas
        – don’t act like a virgin, don’t act desperate. Imagine yourself as a low-inhibition negro. During your date be confident. Don’t be douchy but be confident. Have the white man self-assurance with the negro low-inhib. Don’t think of yourself as an incel. You’re a player, a cool guy, an alpha. Assume that role but don’t be sleazy.
        – LISTEN to your date. Prompt a subject, and listen to her talk. Women love to talk about themselves. Let them talk and talk, nod and ask questions. Occasionally interject about yourself. Once she gets going the conversation will flow naturally. This is the key in, it makes them all wobbly and feel comfortable around you.
        – Make sure she has a drink going to loosen her up. On the flip side, make sure she’s not getting wasted so you don’t get arrested for rape.

        When you follow this advice she will leave the bar/restaurant happy and horny. Strong woman love to feel special and listened to! Tell her that you’re going back to your place. She will oblige. Then fuck her.

        It’s relatively easy to not be an actual incel. But this lifestyle is not fulfilling and can lead to STDs and other problems. There’s a reason the Bible says sex is for one man and one woman in a marriage. BUT if you want to see what sex feels like, follow those steps and you might strike out at first but you will eventually get develop a formula.

        From Tinder:
        – Clever opening line
        – Talk small talk for a bit. Ask lots of questions
        – Convo gets going decently well
        – Can i get your number, btw?
        – Get number
        – Keep chatting over text
        – ‘We should grab some drinks some time. How does (date and place) sound?’
        – ‘Great, see you there!’

        It’s really just a formula. Incels get psyched out by some adversity. You have to keep rolling! If you get rejected there’s always another fish.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        So after a while it’s not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).
         
        Not only is it not worth it, it's also dishonorable. If you are pretending to be interested in a conversation that you think is just "brainless drivel," you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.
        , @216
        You should test your theories out on the incel boards.

        Good luck
        , @L Woods
        As you say, the juice is not worth the squeeze. Frankly, we shouldn’t have to listen to hours of their inane drivel to fulfill a basic need.
        , @Oblivionrecurs
        I will say that my overall happiness has oddly decreased as my sex life transitioned from occasional deep relationship to More frequent causal sex. I feel way more unclean

        That said my more confident 50-100+ body count friends are peaking upwards in happiness, though each one is low-key mortified they'll never achieve marriage.

        And a lot of my success has been just being more confident lll get laid, listening, being a relaxed persona, and throwing out the most raunchy lines i can think of
        , @Audacious Epigone
        And hint: about 80% of men can be a 7/10 or higher if they try.

        7/10 corresponds to the 70th percentile, so how can 4-in-5 men get there?
      116. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Meh.

        It's really not that hard to get laid if you are a 7/10 or higher, are willing to take some good Tinder pictures, and have a decent personality. And hint: about 80% of men can be a 7/10 or higher if they try. Life has hierarchies; if you're an unfortunately ugly guy that sucks but that's how it goes.

        However, I say that the incel culture is more a reaction to modern feminism and degeneracy than it is to men actually not being able to get laid. Most men can (or could theoretically) get laid, but cannot form meaningful relationships with women, whose personalities are awful and whose pair bonding abilities are shot. So after a while it's not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).

        You can finish through casual sex but it's not nearly as good of a feeling as finishing during romantic sex. In fact it's a dirty and gritty kind of feeling. It hasn't happened to me, but I feel that if you do it enough it *will* take over your personality and you will become an ugly person.

        But tips for the sexually frustrated guys. I wouldn't recommend it but if you want to get laid I can help:

        - don't be ugly. Work out, wear decent clothes, get a fashy or manly haircut or whatever works. Women hate betas
        - don't act like a virgin, don't act desperate. Imagine yourself as a low-inhibition negro. During your date be confident. Don't be douchy but be confident. Have the white man self-assurance with the negro low-inhib. Don't think of yourself as an incel. You're a player, a cool guy, an alpha. Assume that role but don't be sleazy.
        - LISTEN to your date. Prompt a subject, and listen to her talk. Women love to talk about themselves. Let them talk and talk, nod and ask questions. Occasionally interject about yourself. Once she gets going the conversation will flow naturally. This is the key in, it makes them all wobbly and feel comfortable around you.
        - Make sure she has a drink going to loosen her up. On the flip side, make sure she's not getting wasted so you don't get arrested for rape.

        When you follow this advice she will leave the bar/restaurant happy and horny. Strong woman love to feel special and listened to! Tell her that you're going back to your place. She will oblige. Then fuck her.

        It's relatively easy to not be an actual incel. But this lifestyle is not fulfilling and can lead to STDs and other problems. There's a reason the Bible says sex is for one man and one woman in a marriage. BUT if you want to see what sex feels like, follow those steps and you might strike out at first but you will eventually get develop a formula.

        From Tinder:
        - Clever opening line
        - Talk small talk for a bit. Ask lots of questions
        - Convo gets going decently well
        - Can i get your number, btw?
        - Get number
        - Keep chatting over text
        - 'We should grab some drinks some time. How does (date and place) sound?'
        - 'Great, see you there!'

        It's really just a formula. Incels get psyched out by some adversity. You have to keep rolling! If you get rejected there's always another fish.

        So after a while it’s not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).

        Not only is it not worth it, it’s also dishonorable. If you are pretending to be interested in a conversation that you think is just “brainless drivel,” you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.

        • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Lol.

        First you attack incels for being losers. Now I give incels a clear strategy to get them out of inceldom and apparently that is also for losers. And by the way, every man finds woman's drivel to be boring. My strategy applies for dating too. You want a good first date, listen to the woman.

        Look, I totally agree that we should be getting married at age 19,20,21 and fucking like rabbits. But you also have to look at reality. Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn't have as much time for UNZ.

        Women will never be happy unless they submit to their husbands and you are proof of that.
        , @Dumbo

        you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.
         
        Honestly, the truth is that many women LIKE lies, actually, they prefer lies to truth. Pretty lies, of course. They prefer a guy to tell her what she wants to hear instead of being honest about her. Just try to tell a woman if "she looks fat in that dress". The great seducers have all been great liars. But it has to be done in a certain way, of course.

        But it's funny, if a man lies to get sex, he is "little better than a rapist". But if a woman, you know, make subtle (and not so subtle) promises of sex or the possibility of a relationship, in exchange for favors (from buying a drink to career promotions), and then ends up giving nothing in return, that somehow is OK.

        I don't think men should be necessarily blamed for lying, because women lie about sex practically all the time.
      117. anon[161] • Disclaimer says:

        “I’ve heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.”

        That would effectively end civilization as the best of pretty much every high IQ field are men – best scientists, best mathematicians, best engineers, best book authors, best movie directors … . A country with 80% women is soon either not a functioning country anymore or is conquered by another. A better solution is student loan reform: decrease the number of women with useless college degrees and that will make men proportionately more attractive to women because women naturally desire mates who are superior to them; it’s hard for a woman to be attracted to a guy who doesn’t have the social approval conferred by a degree – even a useless one.

      118. @Rosie

        So after a while it’s not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).
         
        Not only is it not worth it, it's also dishonorable. If you are pretending to be interested in a conversation that you think is just "brainless drivel," you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.

        Lol.

        First you attack incels for being losers. Now I give incels a clear strategy to get them out of inceldom and apparently that is also for losers. And by the way, every man finds woman’s drivel to be boring. My strategy applies for dating too. You want a good first date, listen to the woman.

        Look, I totally agree that we should be getting married at age 19,20,21 and fucking like rabbits. But you also have to look at reality. Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn’t have as much time for UNZ.

        Women will never be happy unless they submit to their husbands and you are proof of that.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.
         
        Is there some particular reason a man needs to wait until he is 30 to get married?

        Also, were you not just saying sex destroys women's pair-bonding ability? Is it right to destroy the pair-bonding ability of someone else's future wife? (Your premise, not mine.)
        , @216

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn’t have as much time for UNZ.
         
        Younger men find it difficult to police the behavior of their female peers. Their main leverage comes from the power of commitment, which is something that many younger women are not interested in until a later date.

        Older women have an easier time at policing younger women.

        Younger men can best police their own behavior, by not being overweight, and not being thirsty orbiters. Maybe they can magically double their salaries by installing a Fourth Reich. They can also to a lesser degree police the behavior of older men, to get them to stop pursuing younger women.

        Older women wish to police older men from pursuing younger women, but find this difficult.

        So, contra Rosie, there is a pro-Mgtow argument for tradcons. Older divorced/bachelor men, the early base of mgtow, need to be shamed away from remarriage and from pursuing younger women.

        The neo-victorian nature of fourth-wave feminism is also helpful, as Feryl has mentioned in previous threads. Feminists in the present day are ruthlessly critical of large age gaps in relationships. They also loathe "virgin shaming" as much as "slut shaming".
        , @WHAT
        You should have seen this creature being savagely repeatedly BTFOd on then still active AR.com, only to return for more. Thirst for attention is the only operant principle with it.
        , @Corvinus
        "And by the way, every man finds woman’s drivel to be boring."

        Not really, especially if the man wants to bed them :)

        "Women will never be happy unless they submit to their husbands..."

        More like YOU will never be happy.
        , @Anon
        It depends on what a "loser" is, and by whose criteria.

        For me, and, I think, generally, a man who aims consciously at sex with numerous random women is a "loser" in any case; if successful, he is a cad, which is tragic, and, if unsuccessful, he is an "incel", which is comic.

        On the other hand, from the viewpoint of the subject, the "incel" as defined above considers himself a loser, while the cad considers himself a winner.

        There is, of all places, a good discussion of this in the Book of Snobs concerning Wiggle and Waggle.

        On another hand as sociological analysis the whole Game idea is very interesting; its terms do not give a particularly accurate description of the world, but then neither do Marx's. I don't think enough attention has been paid to this angle.

        Btw, the comment to which you replied borders on insanity. Being polite != rape.
        , @Twinkie

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn’t have as much time for UNZ.
         
        Forget her husband. What about her children? I don’t know any mom who spends a fraction of the time she does arguing with strangers. Most of the ones I know are busy homeschooling their kids, shuttling them to extracurricular activities, taking care of the home, looking out for their husbands... and some of them even work outside the house.

        Meanwhile Rosie claims she has kids and complains about not having a maid, yet she’s here arguing with everyone. One wonders...
      119. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Lol.

        First you attack incels for being losers. Now I give incels a clear strategy to get them out of inceldom and apparently that is also for losers. And by the way, every man finds woman's drivel to be boring. My strategy applies for dating too. You want a good first date, listen to the woman.

        Look, I totally agree that we should be getting married at age 19,20,21 and fucking like rabbits. But you also have to look at reality. Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn't have as much time for UNZ.

        Women will never be happy unless they submit to their husbands and you are proof of that.

        Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.

        Is there some particular reason a man needs to wait until he is 30 to get married?

        Also, were you not just saying sex destroys women’s pair-bonding ability? Is it right to destroy the pair-bonding ability of someone else’s future wife? (Your premise, not mine.)

        • Replies: @216
        The expectation is that a man can provide a bourgeois lifestyle, which due to credentialism isn't possible until the late 20s in many cases.

        Anglo culture is not friendly to the concept of multi-generational households, one reason why Anglos are so easily out-hustled by immigrants.

        Anglo culture also, correctly, shames large age gaps in relationships.

        ---

        There's a manosphere logic that claims men aren't psychologically damaged as much by promiscuity. Whether that is true or not, I don't have any information on. But as a social matter, we should argue that it is bad.

        The problem is that policing alpha males is rather hard. Much relies on the self-discipline of alpha men. Other blocs of society are policed and self-policing.

        ---

        Men typically didn't marry until their mid-20s for most of European recorded history. Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common.

        https://uponhopeblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-dont-poor-marry.html
      120. @Dumbo
        There are many reasons why people won't have sex. I think there were always people who for some reason or other were left out of the sexual market. However, with feminism and female independence this became a much worse issue. As someone else said here, now that women have financial independence and even support from the State if they are single moms, they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men.

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem.

        Now it is true that there are some "incels" who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don't really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there's not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages.

        I've read an article about some Japanese dude who "married" a cartoon character because he couldn't get the attention of any woman. And I've read that in Japan now 1 out of 4 men will never have sex (or something to that effect).

        But in Japan until the fifties marriages arranged or semi-arranged by parents were the norm (just watch any Ozu movie), and it worked for them. So maybe they should go back to arranged marriages.

        As for the West, it is more difficult for this to happen, our treatment of women has always been more free, despite what women say about the "patriarchy". I've heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.

        A study was done where people were shown photos of the opposite sex and asked what percentage were good looking. Women said about twenty percent of men were good looking and men said about sixty percent of women were. Men are generally more promiscuous than women and have lower standards for who they find attractive enough to have sex with and will thus rate a higher percentage of members of the opposite sex as attractive. However, when another study was done on women responding to men on online dating services it was found that women were responding to men outside that twenty percent. Women were looking at other factors too when responding. What has changed the dating market somewhat in recent years is the increased availability of welfare for women, increases in the number of government jobs that women can work at, and affirmative action for women in private sector jobs. The unattractive male could formerly compensate somewhat by offering to marry women and be an economic provider. This can still be done but is now harder. If you say that maybe twenty percent of women who formerly married have now decided due to government income transfers not to marry that means for every 80 women there are 100 men competing for them. Men have divided into four groups. Some men still focus on careers and try to be the male provider type but their numbers are declining as they realize fewer women are interested in that and they see increasingly large percentages of their income taken in taxes and see themselves passed over for job promotions due to affirmative action. There is a second group of men who focus more on their looks. Gym memberships for men have increased in recent years and more men are now focused on fashion and grooming than formerly. There is a third group of men who have decided to psychologically manipulate women into sex and it is that group that studies the game blogs and books that have increased in number in recent years. Then there is a fourth group of men that have decided to just make enough money to get by on and focus on television, video games and various other hobbies men engage in. The rise of this slacker male is very noticeable. I’m older and I’ve seen the increase over the years. The slacker types continue to have sex if they have good game or are physically attractive but if they aren’t they contribute to the incel phenomenon.

      121. @Rosie

        Are you completely a-okay with the production and distributionn of porn?
         
        Heck no. I would ban it if I could.

        Then why would you present it as some sort of solution for incels?

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Then why would you present it as some sort of solution for incels?
         
        No, I don't think it is the solution to their problems, but to some extent at least, the cause of their problems. They're not interested in attainable women because they're overstimulated by porn.
      122. @iffen
        Then why would you present it as some sort of solution for incels?

        Then why would you present it as some sort of solution for incels?

        No, I don’t think it is the solution to their problems, but to some extent at least, the cause of their problems. They’re not interested in attainable women because they’re overstimulated by porn.

        • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Wrong. Everybody knows that porn is not realistic.

        How many times have you taken dick from a hot plumber? Or fucked an Uber driver?

        Men turn to porn when there's nothing else available (either can't get laid or don't think it's worth it), or they are bored with their wives.
        , @Anonymous
        You're a proponent of feminism and egalitarianism between the sexes. Porn serves as an opiate that represses male energy to a certain extent and inhibits potential social disruption and upheaval caused by males. How do you square your feminism and egalitarianism with your opposition to porn, which acts as a tool to suppress men? If men aren't suppressed through opiates like porn, they are going to effect social change towards either general disruption and chaos or more patriarchal societies, neither of which bodes well for feminism and egalitarianism.
        , @216
        Banning pron is accelerationism, few things would cause such an immediate outbreak of social instability.
      123. @Rosie

        So after a while it’s not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).
         
        Not only is it not worth it, it's also dishonorable. If you are pretending to be interested in a conversation that you think is just "brainless drivel," you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.

        you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.

        Honestly, the truth is that many women LIKE lies, actually, they prefer lies to truth. Pretty lies, of course. They prefer a guy to tell her what she wants to hear instead of being honest about her. Just try to tell a woman if “she looks fat in that dress”. The great seducers have all been great liars. But it has to be done in a certain way, of course.

        But it’s funny, if a man lies to get sex, he is “little better than a rapist”. But if a woman, you know, make subtle (and not so subtle) promises of sex or the possibility of a relationship, in exchange for favors (from buying a drink to career promotions), and then ends up giving nothing in return, that somehow is OK.

        I don’t think men should be necessarily blamed for lying, because women lie about sex practically all the time.

        • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Women don't know what they want, which is why female empowerment is so dangerous to them. Women think they want honesty, but try being honest to a woman (as you showed).

        Ephesians 5:22-24 says, "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

        This has been known for thousands of years, in fact even before the Bible was written. Now our empowered females with the help of some (((friends))) think they have cracked the code and can be strong and independent.
        , @Rosie

        I don’t think men should be necessarily blamed for lying, because women lie about sex practically all the time.
         
        Shouldn't someone be coming long with a lecture about "virtue" right about now?
        , @Achmed E. Newman

        Honestly, the truth is that many women LIKE lies, actually, they prefer lies to truth.
         
        AGREED. That's what I was getting at too, but getting this across to most women is impossible (Exhibit A here) for this very reason. Catch-22 - it's some catch, isn't it?
      124. @Rosie

        Then why would you present it as some sort of solution for incels?
         
        No, I don't think it is the solution to their problems, but to some extent at least, the cause of their problems. They're not interested in attainable women because they're overstimulated by porn.

        Wrong. Everybody knows that porn is not realistic.

        How many times have you taken dick from a hot plumber? Or fucked an Uber driver?

        Men turn to porn when there’s nothing else available (either can’t get laid or don’t think it’s worth it), or they are bored with their wives.

      125. @Dumbo

        you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.
         
        Honestly, the truth is that many women LIKE lies, actually, they prefer lies to truth. Pretty lies, of course. They prefer a guy to tell her what she wants to hear instead of being honest about her. Just try to tell a woman if "she looks fat in that dress". The great seducers have all been great liars. But it has to be done in a certain way, of course.

        But it's funny, if a man lies to get sex, he is "little better than a rapist". But if a woman, you know, make subtle (and not so subtle) promises of sex or the possibility of a relationship, in exchange for favors (from buying a drink to career promotions), and then ends up giving nothing in return, that somehow is OK.

        I don't think men should be necessarily blamed for lying, because women lie about sex practically all the time.

        Women don’t know what they want, which is why female empowerment is so dangerous to them. Women think they want honesty, but try being honest to a woman (as you showed).

        Ephesians 5:22-24 says, “Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.”

        This has been known for thousands of years, in fact even before the Bible was written. Now our empowered females with the help of some (((friends))) think they have cracked the code and can be strong and independent.

        • Replies: @Toronto Russian

        Now our empowered females with the help of some (((friends))) think they have cracked the code and can be strong and independent.
         
        When there is a choice between being smacked around by their husbands and being strong and independent (and poor and working like dogs in a foreign land with small children on their hands), even Muslim women from trad families choose the latter and have no regrets.

        Sabeen had survived two abusive marriages. She had entered the first – an arranged marriage – in Lahore, Pakistan, at the age of 21. After almost 10 difficult years, she boarded a plane with her children to start again in Canada. At 35, she then tried marriage a second time. This husband quickly turned emotionally abusive. To Sabeen, living with him felt like “living with the devil,” and she began fearing for the safety of her children. In a matter of months, she found the strength, yet again, to leave.

        Sabeen had wanted to attend the University of Toronto Mississauga for a long time, hoping to attain a degree in criminology and sociolegal studies to pursue a career in family law. But there were so many roadblocks to attending university, including paperwork: she didn’t have her transcripts from the university she had attended in Pakistan. She was dealing with the emotional and financial toll of a divorce in progress, and of being a single working mom. But she thought a lot about applying, anyhow.

        One day, her mom sent her a link to a Toronto Life article, with a one-line message: “If she can do it, you can do it.” It was a memoir by U of T alum Samra Zafar, who had been forced into an arranged marriage at the age of 17. Like Sabeen, she had survived emotional and physical abuse. She, too, had two children very young. She, too, had found the strength to leave her marriage. Unlike Sabeen, Samra was much further ahead in her academic journey – and her journey of healing. She had not only earned a bachelor of science in financial economics from UTM in 2013, but had followed it up with a master’s in economics in 2014. She was now pursuing a successful career in commercial banking. ...

        Since then, Samra has been her mentor, an unofficial position that sees them meet up or talk once a month. The first time they met, at a Starbucks, they talked away the hours over coffee that went cold. “I thought, ‘She is so powerful and confident’ – and her smile,” says Sabeen. “When people go through pain, it’s hard to smile. So for her to be able to smile like that, where her eyes and her entire face sparkle, you can tell she’s come a long way and she’s proud of herself.” Adds Sabeen: “My smile’s kind of getting there now. Going to UTM is my healing process. Doing something for myself is a whole new beginning.” ...

        When Samra left her husband in her second year at UTM in 2011 and moved into campus housing, she was struggling under the weight of court cases surrounding the divorce and domestic abuse; her own challenges of healing and coping; working multiple jobs; raising her girls; and going to school. It was her UTM mentors and friends who lifted her up: Students would look after her children when she was at the lawyer’s office. Professors would spend hours motivating her and encouraging her to go on.

        Like Samra, Sabeen certainly knows what it’s like to navigate her way through extreme stressors while attending university and raising children. She tries to schedule her classes so she can be there when her 10-year-old son and 13-year-old daughter get home from school; then she makes dinner and helps them with homework. When night hits, it is time for her to do her own assignments. Making friends with other students has been difficult given the difference in age and life experience – and Samra helps her with that. “Only she can understand the pain that I feel, the misery of being undermined so much,” says Sabeen. “She went to hell, she came back. And she’s OK. Unless you’ve been to hell and back, you don’t know what it feels like and you don’t know if it’s going to be OK.”

        https://magazine.utoronto.ca/people/alumni-donors/mentors-help-students-find-their-inner-strength/
         
      126. @Dumbo

        you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.
         
        Honestly, the truth is that many women LIKE lies, actually, they prefer lies to truth. Pretty lies, of course. They prefer a guy to tell her what she wants to hear instead of being honest about her. Just try to tell a woman if "she looks fat in that dress". The great seducers have all been great liars. But it has to be done in a certain way, of course.

        But it's funny, if a man lies to get sex, he is "little better than a rapist". But if a woman, you know, make subtle (and not so subtle) promises of sex or the possibility of a relationship, in exchange for favors (from buying a drink to career promotions), and then ends up giving nothing in return, that somehow is OK.

        I don't think men should be necessarily blamed for lying, because women lie about sex practically all the time.

        I don’t think men should be necessarily blamed for lying, because women lie about sex practically all the time.

        Shouldn’t someone be coming long with a lecture about “virtue” right about now?

        • Replies: @iffen
        Shouldn’t someone be coming long with a lecture about “virtue” right about now?

        How many times have you taken dick from a hot plumber? Or fucked an Uber driver?

        I thought this might be his cue.
      127. @Rosie

        I don’t think men should be necessarily blamed for lying, because women lie about sex practically all the time.
         
        Shouldn't someone be coming long with a lecture about "virtue" right about now?

        Shouldn’t someone be coming long with a lecture about “virtue” right about now?

        How many times have you taken dick from a hot plumber? Or fucked an Uber driver?

        I thought this might be his cue.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        I thought this might be his cue.
         
        ROFLOL.
      128. @iffen
        Shouldn’t someone be coming long with a lecture about “virtue” right about now?

        How many times have you taken dick from a hot plumber? Or fucked an Uber driver?

        I thought this might be his cue.

        I thought this might be his cue.

        ROFLOL.

      129. @Achmed E. Newman
        LOL! The looser the waist band, the deeper the quicksand, or so I have read ... Big bottom's driving me out of my mind. How can I leave this behind?

        Thanks, I'll have to see this one again, Mike.

        It’s in the top 10 of funniest movies ever that couldn’t have been made today.

      130. @Achmed E. Newman
        Man, it's awful quiet around here .... oh, here comes the rinse cycle.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYTSVPS0pQU

        Quiet, you say? Watch this with headphones: Check the gravity blast technique on the snare at around 2:30:

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        Pretty impressive.
      131. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
        @Rosie

        Then why would you present it as some sort of solution for incels?
         
        No, I don't think it is the solution to their problems, but to some extent at least, the cause of their problems. They're not interested in attainable women because they're overstimulated by porn.

        You’re a proponent of feminism and egalitarianism between the sexes. Porn serves as an opiate that represses male energy to a certain extent and inhibits potential social disruption and upheaval caused by males. How do you square your feminism and egalitarianism with your opposition to porn, which acts as a tool to suppress men? If men aren’t suppressed through opiates like porn, they are going to effect social change towards either general disruption and chaos or more patriarchal societies, neither of which bodes well for feminism and egalitarianism.

        • Replies: @216
        Read Rollo Tomassi on "The Feminine Imperative"

        Also read Dalrock blog

        ---

        It is a staple of tradcon thinking that men turn to pron out of laziness, or "Sloth" rather than "Lust". In the same token, there is no accusation of female "Wrath" or "Greed" or particularly "Gluttony".

        The "Envy" angle on male pron consumption is under-explored. Feminists are wary of anything that questions "sex-positive" and tradcons are wary of this being extended to female hypergamy. TRP is nominally anti-porn, but won't question the Envy angle lest for fear of embarrassment for advocating far too high of standards in looks.

        So if you take away pron, men will behave like obedient 1950s White Suburban Beta Males, while having far less authority than they did in the 1950s. For all we know, there's a Japanese counterpart where some Shinto priestess is complaining about men not being salarymen because of anime.
      132. @Disordered Deacon
        "no, it's your fault. because."

        or if more childish in the mind:
        "serves you right, icky boys!"

        I don’t think that’s what she means. I believe Rosie is saying that for every unattractive guy out there, there’s an equally unattractive gal.

        Just as most men overestimate their talents and skills so too they overestimate their manly attractiveness. A big part of getting laid is lowering your sights a bit–humbling to be sure–but ultimately more gratifying. Its likely that his best match is, realistically, the feminine mirror image of who he is. Sadly, this likely rules out pinup material, homecoming queens or the woman he fantasizes about.( After all, sixty six percent of us are average and another seventeen worse off than that.)

        Teaching men “game”, i.e. tricks of the trade that theoretically enable a poor slob to nail a hitherto unbangable chick is not necessarily a winning strategy. It may be more effective to teach him to accept himself as he really is and then urge him to find an appropriate match. So, an ironic outcome of “game” may be that in encouraging ordinary guys in the belief that, with a little spiel, they can bag the unattainable, it ultimately adds to the tally of incels.

      133. I know the abortion thread passed a while back, but in recognition of fathers…
        https://mobile.twitter.com/KayFellowz/status/1140215755881025536

        “Please don’t kill our baby…” – here a man is willing to live up to his part of the bargain, but I guess it’s her choice and not his child…

        Peace.

      134. @Talha
        Mennonites are the furthest thing from Templars you can find, which is why I mentioned if that was the only other option. If we are honest, a reconstituted Templar cadre would go far more postal on the target-rich environment of atheist apostates/heathens. The Templars actually negotiated terms and treaties with Muslim polities. Muslims may have theological differences, but we don’t do this kind of comedy about the Son of Mary (pbuh):
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=B6zorQM2xOM

        Priorities...

        keep our bacon and wine.
         
        Those are completely protected rights for non-Muslim minorities and have been for centuries. Even a state like Pakistan where Christians often get the short end of the stick, these are protected rights via the constitution. Look up the Murree Brewery.

        They are simply not acceptable for jizyah payment in lieu of performing military services for males. Women and kids don’t have to worry about this.

        Peace.

        Lan astaslem, scumbag.

        Now go back to the shithole your parents escaped from, and take your nasty religion with you.  Such a pity that they refused to recognize what they were fleeing from, and failed to educate you properly.  You will pay the price.  So be it.

        • Troll: 216
        • Replies: @Talha
        If you want me to go back, I highly suggest you contact your elected representatives; they draft the laws.

        Once I get my official Federal notice in the mail that my citizenship has been revoked and I have an X amount of time to leave; I’ll get my stuff in order, sell off my assets and leave without fuss.

        Peace.
      135. bruh.

        have you seen how good those sex dolls are now?

      136. @Mr. Rational
        Lan astaslem, scumbag.

        Now go back to the shithole your parents escaped from, and take your nasty religion with you.  Such a pity that they refused to recognize what they were fleeing from, and failed to educate you properly.  You will pay the price.  So be it.

        If you want me to go back, I highly suggest you contact your elected representatives; they draft the laws.

        Once I get my official Federal notice in the mail that my citizenship has been revoked and I have an X amount of time to leave; I’ll get my stuff in order, sell off my assets and leave without fuss.

        Peace.

      137. 216 says:
        @Rosie

        Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.
         
        Is there some particular reason a man needs to wait until he is 30 to get married?

        Also, were you not just saying sex destroys women's pair-bonding ability? Is it right to destroy the pair-bonding ability of someone else's future wife? (Your premise, not mine.)

        The expectation is that a man can provide a bourgeois lifestyle, which due to credentialism isn’t possible until the late 20s in many cases.

        Anglo culture is not friendly to the concept of multi-generational households, one reason why Anglos are so easily out-hustled by immigrants.

        Anglo culture also, correctly, shames large age gaps in relationships.

        There’s a manosphere logic that claims men aren’t psychologically damaged as much by promiscuity. Whether that is true or not, I don’t have any information on. But as a social matter, we should argue that it is bad.

        The problem is that policing alpha males is rather hard. Much relies on the self-discipline of alpha men. Other blocs of society are policed and self-policing.

        Men typically didn’t marry until their mid-20s for most of European recorded history. Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common.

        https://uponhopeblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-dont-poor-marry.html

        • Replies: @Rosie

        The expectation is that a man can provide a bourgeois lifestyle, which due to credentialism isn’t possible until the late 20s in many cases.
         
        There is no such expectation. My husband and I worked for years toward the ability to live on one income.

        There’s a manosphere logic that claims men aren’t psychologically damaged as much by promiscuity. Whether that is true or not, I don’t have any information on. But as a social matter, we should argue that it is bad.
         
        Agreed. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Even if only women are "damaged," it is still just as immoral for men to do it.

        Men typically didn’t marry until their mid-20s for most of European recorded history. Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common
         
        And that's precisely why men need to get married earlier.
        , @L Woods

        Anglo culture also, correctly, shames large age gaps in relationships.

         
        Ah yes, “Anglo culture,” the “culture” of metoo and transsexual boyscout leaders. “Anglo culture” can go fuck itself.
      138. @Rosie

        Then why would you present it as some sort of solution for incels?
         
        No, I don't think it is the solution to their problems, but to some extent at least, the cause of their problems. They're not interested in attainable women because they're overstimulated by porn.

        Banning pron is accelerationism, few things would cause such an immediate outbreak of social instability.

      139. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Meh.

        It's really not that hard to get laid if you are a 7/10 or higher, are willing to take some good Tinder pictures, and have a decent personality. And hint: about 80% of men can be a 7/10 or higher if they try. Life has hierarchies; if you're an unfortunately ugly guy that sucks but that's how it goes.

        However, I say that the incel culture is more a reaction to modern feminism and degeneracy than it is to men actually not being able to get laid. Most men can (or could theoretically) get laid, but cannot form meaningful relationships with women, whose personalities are awful and whose pair bonding abilities are shot. So after a while it's not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).

        You can finish through casual sex but it's not nearly as good of a feeling as finishing during romantic sex. In fact it's a dirty and gritty kind of feeling. It hasn't happened to me, but I feel that if you do it enough it *will* take over your personality and you will become an ugly person.

        But tips for the sexually frustrated guys. I wouldn't recommend it but if you want to get laid I can help:

        - don't be ugly. Work out, wear decent clothes, get a fashy or manly haircut or whatever works. Women hate betas
        - don't act like a virgin, don't act desperate. Imagine yourself as a low-inhibition negro. During your date be confident. Don't be douchy but be confident. Have the white man self-assurance with the negro low-inhib. Don't think of yourself as an incel. You're a player, a cool guy, an alpha. Assume that role but don't be sleazy.
        - LISTEN to your date. Prompt a subject, and listen to her talk. Women love to talk about themselves. Let them talk and talk, nod and ask questions. Occasionally interject about yourself. Once she gets going the conversation will flow naturally. This is the key in, it makes them all wobbly and feel comfortable around you.
        - Make sure she has a drink going to loosen her up. On the flip side, make sure she's not getting wasted so you don't get arrested for rape.

        When you follow this advice she will leave the bar/restaurant happy and horny. Strong woman love to feel special and listened to! Tell her that you're going back to your place. She will oblige. Then fuck her.

        It's relatively easy to not be an actual incel. But this lifestyle is not fulfilling and can lead to STDs and other problems. There's a reason the Bible says sex is for one man and one woman in a marriage. BUT if you want to see what sex feels like, follow those steps and you might strike out at first but you will eventually get develop a formula.

        From Tinder:
        - Clever opening line
        - Talk small talk for a bit. Ask lots of questions
        - Convo gets going decently well
        - Can i get your number, btw?
        - Get number
        - Keep chatting over text
        - 'We should grab some drinks some time. How does (date and place) sound?'
        - 'Great, see you there!'

        It's really just a formula. Incels get psyched out by some adversity. You have to keep rolling! If you get rejected there's always another fish.

        You should test your theories out on the incel boards.

        Good luck

      140. 216 says:
        @Rosie
        Increased leisure and active recreation must follow increased productivity and prosperity, or else people will get fat. It's as simple as that.

        I suspect the woman-bashers are controlled opposition, possibly paid shills, deliberately trying to prevent dissidents from asking these questions that YPTB don't want asked. Better to have the bulls and sows at each other's throats.

        The manosphere is one of the main components of the Dissident Right, the other components being the remnats of the Alt-Right, Gamergate and the old paleocons.

        The wider community of the dissident movements only includes one main female community, the TERFs, who still primarily identify as leftist.

        As I said of you before, your “white national socialist tradcon feminism” is a Peoples Front of Judea. You antagonize practically every community of interest, while doing next to nothing to encourage responsible female voices.

        • LOL: Twinkie
        • Replies: @Rosie

        You antagonize practically every community of interest, while doing next to nothing to encourage responsible female voices.
         
        I just call 'em like I see 'em.
        , @Twinkie

        Peoples Front of Judea.
         
        Another Monty Python fan!

        “Well, I didn’t vote for you!”
      141. 216 says:
        @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Lol.

        First you attack incels for being losers. Now I give incels a clear strategy to get them out of inceldom and apparently that is also for losers. And by the way, every man finds woman's drivel to be boring. My strategy applies for dating too. You want a good first date, listen to the woman.

        Look, I totally agree that we should be getting married at age 19,20,21 and fucking like rabbits. But you also have to look at reality. Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn't have as much time for UNZ.

        Women will never be happy unless they submit to their husbands and you are proof of that.

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn’t have as much time for UNZ.

        Younger men find it difficult to police the behavior of their female peers. Their main leverage comes from the power of commitment, which is something that many younger women are not interested in until a later date.

        Older women have an easier time at policing younger women.

        Younger men can best police their own behavior, by not being overweight, and not being thirsty orbiters. Maybe they can magically double their salaries by installing a Fourth Reich. They can also to a lesser degree police the behavior of older men, to get them to stop pursuing younger women.

        Older women wish to police older men from pursuing younger women, but find this difficult.

        So, contra Rosie, there is a pro-Mgtow argument for tradcons. Older divorced/bachelor men, the early base of mgtow, need to be shamed away from remarriage and from pursuing younger women.

        The neo-victorian nature of fourth-wave feminism is also helpful, as Feryl has mentioned in previous threads. Feminists in the present day are ruthlessly critical of large age gaps in relationships. They also loathe “virgin shaming” as much as “slut shaming”.

        • Replies: @Corvinus
        "Younger men find it difficult to police the behavior of their female peers"

        That really is not their responsibility. Rather, it is mothers and fathers who are to properly guide their offspring. Furthermore, increasing numbers of men and women in their 20's are choosing to wait for marriage generally for financial reasons. As far as the "policing of behavior", individual families best work at curbing a man's instinct to rut, young or old, and at limiting a woman's thought process to "cut bait" because she thinks she can do better relationship wise. Otherwise, what you have here is Hillary's attitude of "it takes a village".
        , @L Woods

        So, contra Rosie, there is a pro-Mgtow argument for tradcons. Older divorced/bachelor men, the early base of mgtow, need to be shamed away from remarriage and from pursuing younger women.
         
        Lmao, go to hell dude. “Nobody owes you anything” is all I ever heard when I was young. I’ll be damned if I’m going to shirk from getting mine now.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Maybe they can magically double their salaries by installing a Fourth Reich.

        Uh, is there some kind of mental virus out here in our neck of the woods that I'm uniquely immune to?
        , @Audacious Epigone
        They also loathe “virgin shaming” as much as “slut shaming”.

        Right. Maximum freedom for female sexuality--from none to a ton and anywhere in between--and minimum freedom for male sexuality.
      142. @216
        The expectation is that a man can provide a bourgeois lifestyle, which due to credentialism isn't possible until the late 20s in many cases.

        Anglo culture is not friendly to the concept of multi-generational households, one reason why Anglos are so easily out-hustled by immigrants.

        Anglo culture also, correctly, shames large age gaps in relationships.

        ---

        There's a manosphere logic that claims men aren't psychologically damaged as much by promiscuity. Whether that is true or not, I don't have any information on. But as a social matter, we should argue that it is bad.

        The problem is that policing alpha males is rather hard. Much relies on the self-discipline of alpha men. Other blocs of society are policed and self-policing.

        ---

        Men typically didn't marry until their mid-20s for most of European recorded history. Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common.

        https://uponhopeblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-dont-poor-marry.html

        The expectation is that a man can provide a bourgeois lifestyle, which due to credentialism isn’t possible until the late 20s in many cases.

        There is no such expectation. My husband and I worked for years toward the ability to live on one income.

        There’s a manosphere logic that claims men aren’t psychologically damaged as much by promiscuity. Whether that is true or not, I don’t have any information on. But as a social matter, we should argue that it is bad.

        Agreed. It doesn’t matter if it’s true or not. Even if only women are “damaged,” it is still just as immoral for men to do it.

        Men typically didn’t marry until their mid-20s for most of European recorded history. Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common

        And that’s precisely why men need to get married earlier.

        • Replies: @Dumbo

        Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common
         
        I think it was also because porn was not available as a (kind of) substitution. If there was no porn, maybe more people would seek prostitutes or strip clubs, etc. Moulin Rouge type clubs were once very popular. In some ways porn today is a more socially-acceptable experience than going to sleazy clubs. But I personally think the effects of porn are worse. Well, I don't know. At least you don't get a STD with porn. But its effects on the brain can be very negative.

        And that’s precisely why men need to get married earlier.
         
        How? Men are expected to provide or at least make more money than the woman and, as someone said, at least in Anglo/Northern countries young people don't want to live with family. Needing a college degree, experience, etc, and considering also that women also study, work and prefer to marry later, I don't see how it is possible for men to start marrying earlier. I think some countries such as Russia and Italy have been recently experimenting with bonuses or payments to help young married couples with children, but not sure if it is working or not. The main way is likely religion, religious people tend to marry earlier.
      143. @216
        The manosphere is one of the main components of the Dissident Right, the other components being the remnats of the Alt-Right, Gamergate and the old paleocons.

        The wider community of the dissident movements only includes one main female community, the TERFs, who still primarily identify as leftist.

        As I said of you before, your "white national socialist tradcon feminism" is a Peoples Front of Judea. You antagonize practically every community of interest, while doing next to nothing to encourage responsible female voices.

        You antagonize practically every community of interest, while doing next to nothing to encourage responsible female voices.

        I just call ’em like I see ’em.

        • Replies: @Rosie
        And besides, 216, you ought to consider that the manospherians "antagonize" half the White population. We're not going to get anywhere by continuing to cater to their sensibilities.
      144. @Rosie

        You antagonize practically every community of interest, while doing next to nothing to encourage responsible female voices.
         
        I just call 'em like I see 'em.

        And besides, 216, you ought to consider that the manospherians “antagonize” half the White population. We’re not going to get anywhere by continuing to cater to their sensibilities.

      145. It looks like there was a transcription error in the 2012 data. It shows an incel rate of 3% which is by far the lowest year on record, the next lowest being 10% in 1996.

        Nah, life was good in the Obama years … everyone was getting some.

      146. @MikeatMikedotMike
        Quiet, you say? Watch this with headphones: Check the gravity blast technique on the snare at around 2:30:

        https://youtu.be/SImHi16cwqc

        Pretty impressive.

      147. @Dumbo

        you are in fact lying, little better than a rapist, really.
         
        Honestly, the truth is that many women LIKE lies, actually, they prefer lies to truth. Pretty lies, of course. They prefer a guy to tell her what she wants to hear instead of being honest about her. Just try to tell a woman if "she looks fat in that dress". The great seducers have all been great liars. But it has to be done in a certain way, of course.

        But it's funny, if a man lies to get sex, he is "little better than a rapist". But if a woman, you know, make subtle (and not so subtle) promises of sex or the possibility of a relationship, in exchange for favors (from buying a drink to career promotions), and then ends up giving nothing in return, that somehow is OK.

        I don't think men should be necessarily blamed for lying, because women lie about sex practically all the time.

        Honestly, the truth is that many women LIKE lies, actually, they prefer lies to truth.

        AGREED. That’s what I was getting at too, but getting this across to most women is impossible (Exhibit A here) for this very reason. Catch-22 – it’s some catch, isn’t it?

        • Replies: @Rosie

        AGREED. That’s what I was getting at too, but getting this across to most women is impossible (Exhibit A here) for this very reason. Catch-22 – it’s some catch, isn’t it?
         
        I understood you perfectly. You think that because women will not have sex with you unless you lie, we like being lied to and you should go on lying to us rather than simply do without casual rolls in the hay.

        There is no hope for any constructive engagement with this kind of morally bankrupt logic.
      148. Laughing. There’s nothing with celibacy – even if it’s because of the circumstances don’t permit relations —-

        count oneself fortunate.

      149. Lol, any particular reason you did not publish my rather innnocuous comment on diet and how to be thin above, AD?

        • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
        ?

        No, I don't recall seeing it. Just checked to make sure nothing from you ended up in spam. Are you sure it submitted?
      150. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Lol.

        First you attack incels for being losers. Now I give incels a clear strategy to get them out of inceldom and apparently that is also for losers. And by the way, every man finds woman's drivel to be boring. My strategy applies for dating too. You want a good first date, listen to the woman.

        Look, I totally agree that we should be getting married at age 19,20,21 and fucking like rabbits. But you also have to look at reality. Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn't have as much time for UNZ.

        Women will never be happy unless they submit to their husbands and you are proof of that.

        You should have seen this creature being savagely repeatedly BTFOd on then still active AR.com, only to return for more. Thirst for attention is the only operant principle with it.

      151. @Dumbo
        There are many reasons why people won't have sex. I think there were always people who for some reason or other were left out of the sexual market. However, with feminism and female independence this became a much worse issue. As someone else said here, now that women have financial independence and even support from the State if they are single moms, they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men.

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem.

        Now it is true that there are some "incels" who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don't really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there's not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages.

        I've read an article about some Japanese dude who "married" a cartoon character because he couldn't get the attention of any woman. And I've read that in Japan now 1 out of 4 men will never have sex (or something to that effect).

        But in Japan until the fifties marriages arranged or semi-arranged by parents were the norm (just watch any Ozu movie), and it worked for them. So maybe they should go back to arranged marriages.

        As for the West, it is more difficult for this to happen, our treatment of women has always been more free, despite what women say about the "patriarchy". I've heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.

        “It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem.”

        That always has been, and always will be, a made up statistic by the manosphere, just like this “correlation” between incels and The Great Awokening. It’s junk science.

        “they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men.”

        You mean there has been little reason for men OR women to settle for the past 60 years.

        “Now it is true that there are some “incels” who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don’t really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there’s not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages.”

        Exactly why they are “incels”, as these suggestions only perpetuate their “status”. How about assisting your fellow man in that regard?

        • Replies: @Dumbo

        How about assisting your fellow man in that regard?
         
        Sure, I can help. So, do you need some hints on how to get laid? ;) :P
      152. @Achmed E. Newman

        Honestly, the truth is that many women LIKE lies, actually, they prefer lies to truth.
         
        AGREED. That's what I was getting at too, but getting this across to most women is impossible (Exhibit A here) for this very reason. Catch-22 - it's some catch, isn't it?

        AGREED. That’s what I was getting at too, but getting this across to most women is impossible (Exhibit A here) for this very reason. Catch-22 – it’s some catch, isn’t it?

        I understood you perfectly. You think that because women will not have sex with you unless you lie, we like being lied to and you should go on lying to us rather than simply do without casual rolls in the hay.

        There is no hope for any constructive engagement with this kind of morally bankrupt logic.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        Nope, you misunderstood me perfectly, or damn close, or else your memory is going. If you remember conversations within these comment in the past, Rosie, you remember I'm married. I don't think I need to lie to have sex now. I try not to lie period, but I sure do withhold saying things or explaining things if I know it just ain't worth the trouble. On the other end of it, I know when to realize what's coming at me is just the BS that comes at certain times, and I've tried to be tough about it and not try to use logic - it's too stressful.

        As for our single commenters, the ones that have gotten laid the most are the ones that ought to be listened to in this regard. That doesn't mean they are the happiest about women, but if it's sex a man is in need of, he'd better do what works. Trying to be the nice guy over and over is hard to get one's self out of, but it's insanity, per Einstein, who may not have gotten laid that much himself.
      153. @216

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn’t have as much time for UNZ.
         
        Younger men find it difficult to police the behavior of their female peers. Their main leverage comes from the power of commitment, which is something that many younger women are not interested in until a later date.

        Older women have an easier time at policing younger women.

        Younger men can best police their own behavior, by not being overweight, and not being thirsty orbiters. Maybe they can magically double their salaries by installing a Fourth Reich. They can also to a lesser degree police the behavior of older men, to get them to stop pursuing younger women.

        Older women wish to police older men from pursuing younger women, but find this difficult.

        So, contra Rosie, there is a pro-Mgtow argument for tradcons. Older divorced/bachelor men, the early base of mgtow, need to be shamed away from remarriage and from pursuing younger women.

        The neo-victorian nature of fourth-wave feminism is also helpful, as Feryl has mentioned in previous threads. Feminists in the present day are ruthlessly critical of large age gaps in relationships. They also loathe "virgin shaming" as much as "slut shaming".

        “Younger men find it difficult to police the behavior of their female peers”

        That really is not their responsibility. Rather, it is mothers and fathers who are to properly guide their offspring. Furthermore, increasing numbers of men and women in their 20’s are choosing to wait for marriage generally for financial reasons. As far as the “policing of behavior”, individual families best work at curbing a man’s instinct to rut, young or old, and at limiting a woman’s thought process to “cut bait” because she thinks she can do better relationship wise. Otherwise, what you have here is Hillary’s attitude of “it takes a village”.

      154. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Lol.

        First you attack incels for being losers. Now I give incels a clear strategy to get them out of inceldom and apparently that is also for losers. And by the way, every man finds woman's drivel to be boring. My strategy applies for dating too. You want a good first date, listen to the woman.

        Look, I totally agree that we should be getting married at age 19,20,21 and fucking like rabbits. But you also have to look at reality. Can a man really not have sex during his 20s as he waits for that marriage that occurs at age 30? Is that healthy? Personally, I say no. At least get a gf.

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn't have as much time for UNZ.

        Women will never be happy unless they submit to their husbands and you are proof of that.

        “And by the way, every man finds woman’s drivel to be boring.”

        Not really, especially if the man wants to bed them 🙂

        “Women will never be happy unless they submit to their husbands…”

        More like YOU will never be happy.

      155. Speaking of incels or rather or men that couldn’t or didn’t have much luck at a family, this is an interesting take – perhaps the trends we are seeing in Western societies are simply the eventual blind spots of some of its thinkers:

        Peace.

        • Replies: @AaronB
        Lol, not at all surprising.

        I have been saying for some time now Enlightenment rationalism is at the root of our troubles. Shouting from the rooftops, really.

        But utu assures me its just my Jewish hatred of superior Greek culture, and that all that Europeans need to do to be healthy again is return to enlightenment rationalism :)
      156. @Talha
        Speaking of incels or rather or men that couldn’t or didn’t have much luck at a family, this is an interesting take - perhaps the trends we are seeing in Western societies are simply the eventual blind spots of some of its thinkers:
        https://twitter.com/yhazony/status/1130574657948737536

        Peace.

        Lol, not at all surprising.

        I have been saying for some time now Enlightenment rationalism is at the root of our troubles. Shouting from the rooftops, really.

        But utu assures me its just my Jewish hatred of superior Greek culture, and that all that Europeans need to do to be healthy again is return to enlightenment rationalism 🙂

        • Replies: @Talha
        Well, for sure, one can hardly expect respect for the benefits of a society partially premised on patriarchy to come from men who had no clue how to establish one of their own. In fact, one could reasonably only expect outright hostility to and subversion of the institution.

        Is utu married and with children? That would be an interesting question to ask for sure.

        Peace.
        , @Mark G.
        So if Enlightenment rationalism is the problem then would you want to go back to the era before that when the average life expectancy was 35 and the average person lived on the equivalent of a few hundred dollars a year? Or is that just certain aspects of Enlightenment rationalism are the problem?
      157. @AaronB
        Lol, not at all surprising.

        I have been saying for some time now Enlightenment rationalism is at the root of our troubles. Shouting from the rooftops, really.

        But utu assures me its just my Jewish hatred of superior Greek culture, and that all that Europeans need to do to be healthy again is return to enlightenment rationalism :)

        Well, for sure, one can hardly expect respect for the benefits of a society partially premised on patriarchy to come from men who had no clue how to establish one of their own. In fact, one could reasonably only expect outright hostility to and subversion of the institution.

        Is utu married and with children? That would be an interesting question to ask for sure.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @AaronB
        Yeah, and it's interesting how the more abstract, rational, Hellenistic one becomes, the less likely to have a family, children, etc.

        Utu has quietly accepted the demise of Western civilization as a result of clinging to Enlightenment rationalism, out of the conviction that it's still "better" even if it leads to death and nihilism (on another thread).

        Another nihilistic German made the same point to me a while ago.

        It's interesting how they prefer death out of some abstract sense that a philosophy that leads to death is somehow more right - a third German, German reader, has the same attitude.

        To me, Life (eternal) is the standard by which everything should be measured, and if something leads to nihilism then it is plainly stupid in the strictest sense of the term - as if our human minds can access the deepest reaches of reality, and judge life as worthless because of some abstract logical ideas!

        It seems to me a case of satanic Pride - if the unaided human logical faculty cannot discover meaning, then by God we will die. Complete rejection of dependence on a higher Power.

        Well, we each choose our fate, and the majority of whites gave chosen to die. So be it. Let's get a move on it, they can have their "noble" death - lets put the whole world out of its misery and push Western civ over the cliff its threatening to jump from, and let the nightmare spectacle end.

        The world can sigh in relief, and turn a new page.
      158. @Corvinus
        "It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem."

        That always has been, and always will be, a made up statistic by the manosphere, just like this "correlation" between incels and The Great Awokening. It's junk science.

        "they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men."

        You mean there has been little reason for men OR women to settle for the past 60 years.

        "Now it is true that there are some “incels” who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don’t really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there’s not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages."

        Exactly why they are "incels", as these suggestions only perpetuate their "status". How about assisting your fellow man in that regard?

        How about assisting your fellow man in that regard?

        Sure, I can help. So, do you need some hints on how to get laid? 😉 😛

        • Replies: @Oblivionrecurs
        MLG pro tip - shave that neckbeard and make yourself look presentable/smell really good

        Fucking exercise too, can't believe how much my sex life bounces up when I'm putting forth effort to look healthy/good. Don't even need to be hot if you know how to have humour/personality/not be a bitch
        , @Corvinus
        "So, do you need some hints on how to get laid?"

        I don't need to pay you hundreds of dollars for a trivial alpha bootcamp, you scam artist. I do quite well with the free advice on the Internet. Calling Dalrock, anyone?
      159. @AaronB
        Lol, not at all surprising.

        I have been saying for some time now Enlightenment rationalism is at the root of our troubles. Shouting from the rooftops, really.

        But utu assures me its just my Jewish hatred of superior Greek culture, and that all that Europeans need to do to be healthy again is return to enlightenment rationalism :)

        So if Enlightenment rationalism is the problem then would you want to go back to the era before that when the average life expectancy was 35 and the average person lived on the equivalent of a few hundred dollars a year? Or is that just certain aspects of Enlightenment rationalism are the problem?

      160. @Rosie

        The expectation is that a man can provide a bourgeois lifestyle, which due to credentialism isn’t possible until the late 20s in many cases.
         
        There is no such expectation. My husband and I worked for years toward the ability to live on one income.

        There’s a manosphere logic that claims men aren’t psychologically damaged as much by promiscuity. Whether that is true or not, I don’t have any information on. But as a social matter, we should argue that it is bad.
         
        Agreed. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Even if only women are "damaged," it is still just as immoral for men to do it.

        Men typically didn’t marry until their mid-20s for most of European recorded history. Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common
         
        And that's precisely why men need to get married earlier.

        Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common

        I think it was also because porn was not available as a (kind of) substitution. If there was no porn, maybe more people would seek prostitutes or strip clubs, etc. Moulin Rouge type clubs were once very popular. In some ways porn today is a more socially-acceptable experience than going to sleazy clubs. But I personally think the effects of porn are worse. Well, I don’t know. At least you don’t get a STD with porn. But its effects on the brain can be very negative.

        And that’s precisely why men need to get married earlier.

        How? Men are expected to provide or at least make more money than the woman and, as someone said, at least in Anglo/Northern countries young people don’t want to live with family. Needing a college degree, experience, etc, and considering also that women also study, work and prefer to marry later, I don’t see how it is possible for men to start marrying earlier. I think some countries such as Russia and Italy have been recently experimenting with bonuses or payments to help young married couples with children, but not sure if it is working or not. The main way is likely religion, religious people tend to marry earlier.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        How? Men are expected to provide or at least make more money than the woman and, as someone said, at least in Anglo/Northern countries young people don’t want to live with family.
         
        People keep saying this. I don't buy it. If men wait until they are thirty married, then yes, women are going to expect progress in life commensurate with that age. If you marry at 24, you will not be expected to be able to support a family of four on one salary.
      161. How? Men are expected to provide or at least make more money than the woman

        Which is frustrated at every turn by the system’s obsessive insistence on narrowing the “pay gap.” Then, she can just steal the difference in divorce anyway. Brilliant system we have.

        • Replies: @Oblivionrecurs
        Noticed from friends on Tinder/POF white men flaunt they have something to offer, black men make demands.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Credentialism is another huge culprit. The inverse correlation between educational attainment and fertility, especially for women, is staggering. Universities should be on the hook for the tuition of degree holders who aren't able to earn what they were promised they'd be able to earn. Griggs v Duke Power should be overturned, etc.

        The twenties are increasingly becoming the lost decade for young people in the West. Lots of ways to fix that, but they all butt up against the Egalitarian Myth in some way.
      162. @216

        If you spent half the time you spent on UNZ attacking young men, pleasuring your husband, well maybe you wouldn’t have as much time for UNZ.
         
        Younger men find it difficult to police the behavior of their female peers. Their main leverage comes from the power of commitment, which is something that many younger women are not interested in until a later date.

        Older women have an easier time at policing younger women.

        Younger men can best police their own behavior, by not being overweight, and not being thirsty orbiters. Maybe they can magically double their salaries by installing a Fourth Reich. They can also to a lesser degree police the behavior of older men, to get them to stop pursuing younger women.

        Older women wish to police older men from pursuing younger women, but find this difficult.

        So, contra Rosie, there is a pro-Mgtow argument for tradcons. Older divorced/bachelor men, the early base of mgtow, need to be shamed away from remarriage and from pursuing younger women.

        The neo-victorian nature of fourth-wave feminism is also helpful, as Feryl has mentioned in previous threads. Feminists in the present day are ruthlessly critical of large age gaps in relationships. They also loathe "virgin shaming" as much as "slut shaming".

        So, contra Rosie, there is a pro-Mgtow argument for tradcons. Older divorced/bachelor men, the early base of mgtow, need to be shamed away from remarriage and from pursuing younger women.

        Lmao, go to hell dude. “Nobody owes you anything” is all I ever heard when I was young. I’ll be damned if I’m going to shirk from getting mine now.

        • Replies: @216
        Some ox will be gored.

        Right now that ox is the younger beta males.

        That is not tenable, even all of the consumerist distractions of modernity cannot quell the growing political radicalism.
      163. @216
        The expectation is that a man can provide a bourgeois lifestyle, which due to credentialism isn't possible until the late 20s in many cases.

        Anglo culture is not friendly to the concept of multi-generational households, one reason why Anglos are so easily out-hustled by immigrants.

        Anglo culture also, correctly, shames large age gaps in relationships.

        ---

        There's a manosphere logic that claims men aren't psychologically damaged as much by promiscuity. Whether that is true or not, I don't have any information on. But as a social matter, we should argue that it is bad.

        The problem is that policing alpha males is rather hard. Much relies on the self-discipline of alpha men. Other blocs of society are policed and self-policing.

        ---

        Men typically didn't marry until their mid-20s for most of European recorded history. Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common.

        https://uponhopeblog.blogspot.com/2014/08/why-dont-poor-marry.html

        Anglo culture also, correctly, shames large age gaps in relationships.

        Ah yes, “Anglo culture,” the “culture” of metoo and transsexual boyscout leaders. “Anglo culture” can go fuck itself.

        • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
        But, but, but I thought the Jews were to blame! They use mind control to force blue checkmark Anglos to do their bidding!
        , @notanon

        “Anglo culture,” the “culture” of metoo and transsexual boyscout leaders. “Anglo culture” can go fuck itself.
         
        Weinstein had a clause in his contract saying he could be fired without any legal comeback if he was indicted for rape.

        "metoo" was an op by his publicist to deflect attention from this by broadening it out as much as possible (helped by older actresses bitter that they were no longer being given the opportunity to trade sexual favors for roles).

        the trans agenda is almost entirely media coercion.

        none of this is anglo.
      164. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Meh.

        It's really not that hard to get laid if you are a 7/10 or higher, are willing to take some good Tinder pictures, and have a decent personality. And hint: about 80% of men can be a 7/10 or higher if they try. Life has hierarchies; if you're an unfortunately ugly guy that sucks but that's how it goes.

        However, I say that the incel culture is more a reaction to modern feminism and degeneracy than it is to men actually not being able to get laid. Most men can (or could theoretically) get laid, but cannot form meaningful relationships with women, whose personalities are awful and whose pair bonding abilities are shot. So after a while it's not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).

        You can finish through casual sex but it's not nearly as good of a feeling as finishing during romantic sex. In fact it's a dirty and gritty kind of feeling. It hasn't happened to me, but I feel that if you do it enough it *will* take over your personality and you will become an ugly person.

        But tips for the sexually frustrated guys. I wouldn't recommend it but if you want to get laid I can help:

        - don't be ugly. Work out, wear decent clothes, get a fashy or manly haircut or whatever works. Women hate betas
        - don't act like a virgin, don't act desperate. Imagine yourself as a low-inhibition negro. During your date be confident. Don't be douchy but be confident. Have the white man self-assurance with the negro low-inhib. Don't think of yourself as an incel. You're a player, a cool guy, an alpha. Assume that role but don't be sleazy.
        - LISTEN to your date. Prompt a subject, and listen to her talk. Women love to talk about themselves. Let them talk and talk, nod and ask questions. Occasionally interject about yourself. Once she gets going the conversation will flow naturally. This is the key in, it makes them all wobbly and feel comfortable around you.
        - Make sure she has a drink going to loosen her up. On the flip side, make sure she's not getting wasted so you don't get arrested for rape.

        When you follow this advice she will leave the bar/restaurant happy and horny. Strong woman love to feel special and listened to! Tell her that you're going back to your place. She will oblige. Then fuck her.

        It's relatively easy to not be an actual incel. But this lifestyle is not fulfilling and can lead to STDs and other problems. There's a reason the Bible says sex is for one man and one woman in a marriage. BUT if you want to see what sex feels like, follow those steps and you might strike out at first but you will eventually get develop a formula.

        From Tinder:
        - Clever opening line
        - Talk small talk for a bit. Ask lots of questions
        - Convo gets going decently well
        - Can i get your number, btw?
        - Get number
        - Keep chatting over text
        - 'We should grab some drinks some time. How does (date and place) sound?'
        - 'Great, see you there!'

        It's really just a formula. Incels get psyched out by some adversity. You have to keep rolling! If you get rejected there's always another fish.

        As you say, the juice is not worth the squeeze. Frankly, we shouldn’t have to listen to hours of their inane drivel to fulfill a basic need.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Frankly, we shouldn’t have to listen to hours of their inane drivel to fulfill a basic need.
         
        This sounds like a demand to legalize rspe and sex slavery.

        What would one have to advocate to get themselves shunned from the dissident right?
      165. @Dumbo

        How about assisting your fellow man in that regard?
         
        Sure, I can help. So, do you need some hints on how to get laid? ;) :P

        MLG pro tip – shave that neckbeard and make yourself look presentable/smell really good

        Fucking exercise too, can’t believe how much my sex life bounces up when I’m putting forth effort to look healthy/good. Don’t even need to be hot if you know how to have humour/personality/not be a bitch

      166. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Meh.

        It's really not that hard to get laid if you are a 7/10 or higher, are willing to take some good Tinder pictures, and have a decent personality. And hint: about 80% of men can be a 7/10 or higher if they try. Life has hierarchies; if you're an unfortunately ugly guy that sucks but that's how it goes.

        However, I say that the incel culture is more a reaction to modern feminism and degeneracy than it is to men actually not being able to get laid. Most men can (or could theoretically) get laid, but cannot form meaningful relationships with women, whose personalities are awful and whose pair bonding abilities are shot. So after a while it's not always worth the $40 date, hours of listening to brainless drivel just for a momentary release of semen at the end (porn does the job too).

        You can finish through casual sex but it's not nearly as good of a feeling as finishing during romantic sex. In fact it's a dirty and gritty kind of feeling. It hasn't happened to me, but I feel that if you do it enough it *will* take over your personality and you will become an ugly person.

        But tips for the sexually frustrated guys. I wouldn't recommend it but if you want to get laid I can help:

        - don't be ugly. Work out, wear decent clothes, get a fashy or manly haircut or whatever works. Women hate betas
        - don't act like a virgin, don't act desperate. Imagine yourself as a low-inhibition negro. During your date be confident. Don't be douchy but be confident. Have the white man self-assurance with the negro low-inhib. Don't think of yourself as an incel. You're a player, a cool guy, an alpha. Assume that role but don't be sleazy.
        - LISTEN to your date. Prompt a subject, and listen to her talk. Women love to talk about themselves. Let them talk and talk, nod and ask questions. Occasionally interject about yourself. Once she gets going the conversation will flow naturally. This is the key in, it makes them all wobbly and feel comfortable around you.
        - Make sure she has a drink going to loosen her up. On the flip side, make sure she's not getting wasted so you don't get arrested for rape.

        When you follow this advice she will leave the bar/restaurant happy and horny. Strong woman love to feel special and listened to! Tell her that you're going back to your place. She will oblige. Then fuck her.

        It's relatively easy to not be an actual incel. But this lifestyle is not fulfilling and can lead to STDs and other problems. There's a reason the Bible says sex is for one man and one woman in a marriage. BUT if you want to see what sex feels like, follow those steps and you might strike out at first but you will eventually get develop a formula.

        From Tinder:
        - Clever opening line
        - Talk small talk for a bit. Ask lots of questions
        - Convo gets going decently well
        - Can i get your number, btw?
        - Get number
        - Keep chatting over text
        - 'We should grab some drinks some time. How does (date and place) sound?'
        - 'Great, see you there!'

        It's really just a formula. Incels get psyched out by some adversity. You have to keep rolling! If you get rejected there's always another fish.

        I will say that my overall happiness has oddly decreased as my sex life transitioned from occasional deep relationship to More frequent causal sex. I feel way more unclean

        That said my more confident 50-100+ body count friends are peaking upwards in happiness, though each one is low-key mortified they’ll never achieve marriage.

        And a lot of my success has been just being more confident lll get laid, listening, being a relaxed persona, and throwing out the most raunchy lines i can think of

        • Replies: @Talha

        That said my more confident 50-100+ body count friends are peaking upwards in happiness
         
        That sounds a lot like something analogous to an addiction.

        Peace.
      167. @L Woods

        How? Men are expected to provide or at least make more money than the woman
         
        Which is frustrated at every turn by the system’s obsessive insistence on narrowing the “pay gap.” Then, she can just steal the difference in divorce anyway. Brilliant system we have.

        Noticed from friends on Tinder/POF white men flaunt they have something to offer, black men make demands.

      168. I wonder which demographics are seeing a decline in sex and if we’ll hit Japanese rates of sexlessness outside marriage

      169. @Oblivionrecurs
        I will say that my overall happiness has oddly decreased as my sex life transitioned from occasional deep relationship to More frequent causal sex. I feel way more unclean

        That said my more confident 50-100+ body count friends are peaking upwards in happiness, though each one is low-key mortified they'll never achieve marriage.

        And a lot of my success has been just being more confident lll get laid, listening, being a relaxed persona, and throwing out the most raunchy lines i can think of

        That said my more confident 50-100+ body count friends are peaking upwards in happiness

        That sounds a lot like something analogous to an addiction.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        That sounds a lot like something analogous to an addiction.
         
        This site is a despicable cesspit of foulest vice and psychopathic hatred, and I have a way of exposing the ugliness. I hope it doesn't rub off on you if you continue hanging out here.
        , @Oblivionrecurs
        Perhaps. Though they just find easier to instantly attract women

        They do however rarely keep any.
      170. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
        Women don't know what they want, which is why female empowerment is so dangerous to them. Women think they want honesty, but try being honest to a woman (as you showed).

        Ephesians 5:22-24 says, "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

        This has been known for thousands of years, in fact even before the Bible was written. Now our empowered females with the help of some (((friends))) think they have cracked the code and can be strong and independent.

        Now our empowered females with the help of some (((friends))) think they have cracked the code and can be strong and independent.

        When there is a choice between being smacked around by their husbands and being strong and independent (and poor and working like dogs in a foreign land with small children on their hands), even Muslim women from trad families choose the latter and have no regrets.

        Sabeen had survived two abusive marriages. She had entered the first – an arranged marriage – in Lahore, Pakistan, at the age of 21. After almost 10 difficult years, she boarded a plane with her children to start again in Canada. At 35, she then tried marriage a second time. This husband quickly turned emotionally abusive. To Sabeen, living with him felt like “living with the devil,” and she began fearing for the safety of her children. In a matter of months, she found the strength, yet again, to leave.

        Sabeen had wanted to attend the University of Toronto Mississauga for a long time, hoping to attain a degree in criminology and sociolegal studies to pursue a career in family law. But there were so many roadblocks to attending university, including paperwork: she didn’t have her transcripts from the university she had attended in Pakistan. She was dealing with the emotional and financial toll of a divorce in progress, and of being a single working mom. But she thought a lot about applying, anyhow.

        One day, her mom sent her a link to a Toronto Life article, with a one-line message: “If she can do it, you can do it.” It was a memoir by U of T alum Samra Zafar, who had been forced into an arranged marriage at the age of 17. Like Sabeen, she had survived emotional and physical abuse. She, too, had two children very young. She, too, had found the strength to leave her marriage. Unlike Sabeen, Samra was much further ahead in her academic journey – and her journey of healing. She had not only earned a bachelor of science in financial economics from UTM in 2013, but had followed it up with a master’s in economics in 2014. She was now pursuing a successful career in commercial banking. …

        Since then, Samra has been her mentor, an unofficial position that sees them meet up or talk once a month. The first time they met, at a Starbucks, they talked away the hours over coffee that went cold. “I thought, ‘She is so powerful and confident’ – and her smile,” says Sabeen. “When people go through pain, it’s hard to smile. So for her to be able to smile like that, where her eyes and her entire face sparkle, you can tell she’s come a long way and she’s proud of herself.” Adds Sabeen: “My smile’s kind of getting there now. Going to UTM is my healing process. Doing something for myself is a whole new beginning.” …

        When Samra left her husband in her second year at UTM in 2011 and moved into campus housing, she was struggling under the weight of court cases surrounding the divorce and domestic abuse; her own challenges of healing and coping; working multiple jobs; raising her girls; and going to school. It was her UTM mentors and friends who lifted her up: Students would look after her children when she was at the lawyer’s office. Professors would spend hours motivating her and encouraging her to go on.

        Like Samra, Sabeen certainly knows what it’s like to navigate her way through extreme stressors while attending university and raising children. She tries to schedule her classes so she can be there when her 10-year-old son and 13-year-old daughter get home from school; then she makes dinner and helps them with homework. When night hits, it is time for her to do her own assignments. Making friends with other students has been difficult given the difference in age and life experience – and Samra helps her with that. “Only she can understand the pain that I feel, the misery of being undermined so much,” says Sabeen. “She went to hell, she came back. And she’s OK. Unless you’ve been to hell and back, you don’t know what it feels like and you don’t know if it’s going to be OK.”

        https://magazine.utoronto.ca/people/alumni-donors/mentors-help-students-find-their-inner-strength/

        • Replies: @Anonymous
        But women aren't actually independent, even if they are unattached. They are dependent on male taxpayers, government welfare, affirmative action in the workplace, infrastructure maintained by men, etc.
      171. @Dumbo

        How about assisting your fellow man in that regard?
         
        Sure, I can help. So, do you need some hints on how to get laid? ;) :P

        “So, do you need some hints on how to get laid?”

        I don’t need to pay you hundreds of dollars for a trivial alpha bootcamp, you scam artist. I do quite well with the free advice on the Internet. Calling Dalrock, anyone?

      172. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
        @Toronto Russian

        Now our empowered females with the help of some (((friends))) think they have cracked the code and can be strong and independent.
         
        When there is a choice between being smacked around by their husbands and being strong and independent (and poor and working like dogs in a foreign land with small children on their hands), even Muslim women from trad families choose the latter and have no regrets.

        Sabeen had survived two abusive marriages. She had entered the first – an arranged marriage – in Lahore, Pakistan, at the age of 21. After almost 10 difficult years, she boarded a plane with her children to start again in Canada. At 35, she then tried marriage a second time. This husband quickly turned emotionally abusive. To Sabeen, living with him felt like “living with the devil,” and she began fearing for the safety of her children. In a matter of months, she found the strength, yet again, to leave.

        Sabeen had wanted to attend the University of Toronto Mississauga for a long time, hoping to attain a degree in criminology and sociolegal studies to pursue a career in family law. But there were so many roadblocks to attending university, including paperwork: she didn’t have her transcripts from the university she had attended in Pakistan. She was dealing with the emotional and financial toll of a divorce in progress, and of being a single working mom. But she thought a lot about applying, anyhow.

        One day, her mom sent her a link to a Toronto Life article, with a one-line message: “If she can do it, you can do it.” It was a memoir by U of T alum Samra Zafar, who had been forced into an arranged marriage at the age of 17. Like Sabeen, she had survived emotional and physical abuse. She, too, had two children very young. She, too, had found the strength to leave her marriage. Unlike Sabeen, Samra was much further ahead in her academic journey – and her journey of healing. She had not only earned a bachelor of science in financial economics from UTM in 2013, but had followed it up with a master’s in economics in 2014. She was now pursuing a successful career in commercial banking. ...

        Since then, Samra has been her mentor, an unofficial position that sees them meet up or talk once a month. The first time they met, at a Starbucks, they talked away the hours over coffee that went cold. “I thought, ‘She is so powerful and confident’ – and her smile,” says Sabeen. “When people go through pain, it’s hard to smile. So for her to be able to smile like that, where her eyes and her entire face sparkle, you can tell she’s come a long way and she’s proud of herself.” Adds Sabeen: “My smile’s kind of getting there now. Going to UTM is my healing process. Doing something for myself is a whole new beginning.” ...

        When Samra left her husband in her second year at UTM in 2011 and moved into campus housing, she was struggling under the weight of court cases surrounding the divorce and domestic abuse; her own challenges of healing and coping; working multiple jobs; raising her girls; and going to school. It was her UTM mentors and friends who lifted her up: Students would look after her children when she was at the lawyer’s office. Professors would spend hours motivating her and encouraging her to go on.

        Like Samra, Sabeen certainly knows what it’s like to navigate her way through extreme stressors while attending university and raising children. She tries to schedule her classes so she can be there when her 10-year-old son and 13-year-old daughter get home from school; then she makes dinner and helps them with homework. When night hits, it is time for her to do her own assignments. Making friends with other students has been difficult given the difference in age and life experience – and Samra helps her with that. “Only she can understand the pain that I feel, the misery of being undermined so much,” says Sabeen. “She went to hell, she came back. And she’s OK. Unless you’ve been to hell and back, you don’t know what it feels like and you don’t know if it’s going to be OK.”

        https://magazine.utoronto.ca/people/alumni-donors/mentors-help-students-find-their-inner-strength/
         

        But women aren’t actually independent, even if they are unattached. They are dependent on male taxpayers, government welfare, affirmative action in the workplace, infrastructure maintained by men, etc.

      173. @Dumbo

        Historically this is one reason why prostitution was once far more common
         
        I think it was also because porn was not available as a (kind of) substitution. If there was no porn, maybe more people would seek prostitutes or strip clubs, etc. Moulin Rouge type clubs were once very popular. In some ways porn today is a more socially-acceptable experience than going to sleazy clubs. But I personally think the effects of porn are worse. Well, I don't know. At least you don't get a STD with porn. But its effects on the brain can be very negative.

        And that’s precisely why men need to get married earlier.
         
        How? Men are expected to provide or at least make more money than the woman and, as someone said, at least in Anglo/Northern countries young people don't want to live with family. Needing a college degree, experience, etc, and considering also that women also study, work and prefer to marry later, I don't see how it is possible for men to start marrying earlier. I think some countries such as Russia and Italy have been recently experimenting with bonuses or payments to help young married couples with children, but not sure if it is working or not. The main way is likely religion, religious people tend to marry earlier.

        How? Men are expected to provide or at least make more money than the woman and, as someone said, at least in Anglo/Northern countries young people don’t want to live with family.

        People keep saying this. I don’t buy it. If men wait until they are thirty married, then yes, women are going to expect progress in life commensurate with that age. If you marry at 24, you will not be expected to be able to support a family of four on one salary.

      174. @L Woods
        As you say, the juice is not worth the squeeze. Frankly, we shouldn’t have to listen to hours of their inane drivel to fulfill a basic need.

        Frankly, we shouldn’t have to listen to hours of their inane drivel to fulfill a basic need.

        This sounds like a demand to legalize rspe and sex slavery.

        What would one have to advocate to get themselves shunned from the dissident right?

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        I'm just wondering, Rosie, if you have ever walked in a man's moccasins, or any moccasins, for that matter. Everything you write regarding this sex/gender role business is written with a total lack of vision for what the situation is on the other side.

        Would you be happy if your husband insisted you listen carefully as he talked about how he was going to build the fire-wood shelter or what exact tools he was going to use, in what order, to work on the yard, etc., or the problems with some of the NFL draft picks this year? I mean, for an hour at a time. It's probably inane drivel to you. What if he demanded you do this before he'd go ahead and pay the bills or come home each night?

        How about think of that golden rule, but instead of imagining how your husband would feel if you did this or that, if he were a woman, try to imagine that he is a man, and what he wants, for a change?

        You are simply spoiled, and I completely understand when men get sick of spoiling Western woman.
      175. @Talha

        That said my more confident 50-100+ body count friends are peaking upwards in happiness
         
        That sounds a lot like something analogous to an addiction.

        Peace.

        That sounds a lot like something analogous to an addiction.

        This site is a despicable cesspit of foulest vice and psychopathic hatred, and I have a way of exposing the ugliness. I hope it doesn’t rub off on you if you continue hanging out here.

        • Replies: @Talha

        I hope it doesn’t rub off on you if you continue hanging out here.
         
        I come here partially in a clinical sense to observe. It helps me see what my children may have to face and how to nip things in the bud; what to talk to my sons about to make sure they don't lose respect for themselves or women as they go out into the world. We had a funny conversation over dinner a couple of days ago about how we are going to be approaching marriage for the kids as they grow. I've already got a couple of girls (daughters of a friend) in mind for my boys - so we'll see how that works out. My third son wants my daughter to marry his Qur'an teacher so that he and the man's younger brother in-laws. Interestingly, the one that has been the loosest canon has been my daughter (the eldest) in this regard - the boys are much more on board with the program. Maybe we let her watch too many Disney movies that filled her head with nonsense...and then there was her working in theater in high school (sigh), a veritable magnet for freaks and troubled children - that definitely affected her. I've basically convinced my other kids to stay far away from theater so I don't have to spend the time having to undo all the nonsense that gets put in their heads from that environment.

        The conceptual framework I work from regarding courtship/marriage is so different from what people do around here, that I just really find it fascinating to read about how the dating/meat-market works and what affect it has on those that participate. If anything, it has given me a much better appreciation for the way I have inherited.

        As a side note - since you have a big family - may I suggest a family game that we found that our family has absolutely loved:
        https://gamewright.com/product/Sushi-Go-Party

        It is a great game, can have around 8 or so players - lot's of fun and rarely gets boring. Well worth the $20-25.

        Peace.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        This site is a despicable cesspit of foulest vice and psychopathic hatred, and I have a way of exposing the ugliness.

        That's a surefire way to win the crowd to your side!
        , @Twinkie

        This site is a despicable cesspit of foulest vice and psychopathic hatred
         
        You mean like drug abuse (“I need speed to not get fat!”) and calling nonwhites “parasites”? Seem like vice and hatred.

        I have a way of exposing the ugliness.
         
        Yes, your own.
      176. @L Woods
        And right on queue, the old farts posturing. You'd be an incel cleaning toilets at McDonald's if you were born in my generational cohort, you geriatric twit. Has there ever been a generation with less worthwhile to say to the world (rhetorical: there hasn't).

        Agree with you on Boomers (I’m Gen X). The social scene for white men was better in the 1980s when I came of age. But the situation between men and women remains essentially the same. Millennial and Gen Z males tend to have lower testosterone levels than their Boomer and Gen X elders. Women, biologically more sophisticated than men, can detect this. Maybe that’s your problem.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Maybe that’s your problem.
         
        I think he has made very clear what his problem is. He despises women and thinks we exist to service his sexual needs. Since he thinks women are objects rather than human beings, it would probably be best for everyone to give him a sexbot and be done with him before he hurts someone.
        , @Dumbo

        Millennial and Gen Z males tend to have lower testosterone levels than their Boomer and Gen X elders.
         
        Any reference or studies about that? Could it maybe be the consequence of all those drugs and STDs that Boomer hippies transmitted to the following generations? :D

        Honestly, I doubt that's the problem. Also, if women only took testosterone levels into account when choosing a mate, then they would be all "coal burners". Well, I guess that phenomenon is growing, so there's that.
      177. @SunBakedSuburb
        Agree with you on Boomers (I'm Gen X). The social scene for white men was better in the 1980s when I came of age. But the situation between men and women remains essentially the same. Millennial and Gen Z males tend to have lower testosterone levels than their Boomer and Gen X elders. Women, biologically more sophisticated than men, can detect this. Maybe that's your problem.

        Maybe that’s your problem.

        I think he has made very clear what his problem is. He despises women and thinks we exist to service his sexual needs. Since he thinks women are objects rather than human beings, it would probably be best for everyone to give him a sexbot and be done with him before he hurts someone.

        • Replies: @Rosie
        "Do you want to be a member of my girl-hating club?"
        -Son of Sam
        , @Achmed E. Newman

        ... it would probably be best for everyone to give him a sexbot and be done with him before he hurts someone.
         
        Be careful what you wish for, on society's part. Once those sexbots get even more realistic than they already are, women are going to be in one hell of a pickle, or need one hell of a pickle, one.

        Fred Reed, in one of his every-3rd-one non-stupid columns, wrote about this. Peak Stupidity's commentary, with a link to Reed in it, here - "Fred Reed says the Sexbots are coming, and the Feminists are worried sick."
      178. @Rosie

        Maybe that’s your problem.
         
        I think he has made very clear what his problem is. He despises women and thinks we exist to service his sexual needs. Since he thinks women are objects rather than human beings, it would probably be best for everyone to give him a sexbot and be done with him before he hurts someone.

        “Do you want to be a member of my girl-hating club?”
        -Son of Sam

      179. I think Tinder has a lot to do with this. Most men are at such a huge disadvantage on dating apps. Anytime I dabbled in it I got swiped the wrong way (I forgot if it was right or left) 100% of the time. I have a co-worker who is an unattractive woman in her 50s..a few years older than me. She is an online dating superstar. So many men want her she doesn’t have time to respond to them all. Even thirsty guys in their 20s send her pathetic “please cuddle me, I need to be cuddled” messages.

        Yet in the real world at our workplace I have women flirting with me daily both customers and co-workers. While this woman who is so popular online is completely ignored in person…she is
        100% invisible. This online/in person dichotomy is incredible to me. The more online becomes the standard on how to meet the opposite sex, the more incel men we will have.

        • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
        A post-menopausal woman gets too much attention to respond to it all? Is it really that bad?
        , @L Woods
        Yeah, if you don’t get your match in high school/college and don’t belong to a some sort of subculture with a lot of women in it, there’s very little hope. You can date severely down or go without, unless you’re in the tiny percentage that’s grabbing most everything.
        , @Mark G.
        Women can get a lot of attention in online dating because the average guy goes online and then sends out something like fifty emails. So the average female receives something like fifty emails. Many of the older women will go out with twenty guys but not actually pick any of them for a relationship and end up alone. They then complain about the lack of good men. Many of the older women online are really there for the attention. There are actually more unmarried women over the age of forty than men so there is actually a male shortage for older women but older women like to look at all their emails from men and pretend to themselves they are in really high demand.
      180. @Rosie

        That sounds a lot like something analogous to an addiction.
         
        This site is a despicable cesspit of foulest vice and psychopathic hatred, and I have a way of exposing the ugliness. I hope it doesn't rub off on you if you continue hanging out here.

        I hope it doesn’t rub off on you if you continue hanging out here.

        I come here partially in a clinical sense to observe. It helps me see what my children may have to face and how to nip things in the bud; what to talk to my sons about to make sure they don’t lose respect for themselves or women as they go out into the world. We had a funny conversation over dinner a couple of days ago about how we are going to be approaching marriage for the kids as they grow. I’ve already got a couple of girls (daughters of a friend) in mind for my boys – so we’ll see how that works out. My third son wants my daughter to marry his Qur’an teacher so that he and the man’s younger brother in-laws. Interestingly, the one that has been the loosest canon has been my daughter (the eldest) in this regard – the boys are much more on board with the program. Maybe we let her watch too many Disney movies that filled her head with nonsense…and then there was her working in theater in high school (sigh), a veritable magnet for freaks and troubled children – that definitely affected her. I’ve basically convinced my other kids to stay far away from theater so I don’t have to spend the time having to undo all the nonsense that gets put in their heads from that environment.

        The conceptual framework I work from regarding courtship/marriage is so different from what people do around here, that I just really find it fascinating to read about how the dating/meat-market works and what affect it has on those that participate. If anything, it has given me a much better appreciation for the way I have inherited.

        As a side note – since you have a big family – may I suggest a family game that we found that our family has absolutely loved:
        https://gamewright.com/product/Sushi-Go-Party

        It is a great game, can have around 8 or so players – lot’s of fun and rarely gets boring. Well worth the $20-25.

        Peace.

      181. @Talha

        That said my more confident 50-100+ body count friends are peaking upwards in happiness
         
        That sounds a lot like something analogous to an addiction.

        Peace.

        Perhaps. Though they just find easier to instantly attract women

        They do however rarely keep any.

        • Replies: @Talha
        Users discard needles too.

        Peace.
      182. @Oblivionrecurs
        Perhaps. Though they just find easier to instantly attract women

        They do however rarely keep any.

        Users discard needles too.

        Peace.

      183. @Talha
        Well, for sure, one can hardly expect respect for the benefits of a society partially premised on patriarchy to come from men who had no clue how to establish one of their own. In fact, one could reasonably only expect outright hostility to and subversion of the institution.

        Is utu married and with children? That would be an interesting question to ask for sure.

        Peace.

        Yeah, and it’s interesting how the more abstract, rational, Hellenistic one becomes, the less likely to have a family, children, etc.

        Utu has quietly accepted the demise of Western civilization as a result of clinging to Enlightenment rationalism, out of the conviction that it’s still “better” even if it leads to death and nihilism (on another thread).

        Another nihilistic German made the same point to me a while ago.

        It’s interesting how they prefer death out of some abstract sense that a philosophy that leads to death is somehow more right – a third German, German reader, has the same attitude.

        To me, Life (eternal) is the standard by which everything should be measured, and if something leads to nihilism then it is plainly stupid in the strictest sense of the term – as if our human minds can access the deepest reaches of reality, and judge life as worthless because of some abstract logical ideas!

        It seems to me a case of satanic Pride – if the unaided human logical faculty cannot discover meaning, then by God we will die. Complete rejection of dependence on a higher Power.

        Well, we each choose our fate, and the majority of whites gave chosen to die. So be it. Let’s get a move on it, they can have their “noble” death – lets put the whole world out of its misery and push Western civ over the cliff its threatening to jump from, and let the nightmare spectacle end.

        The world can sigh in relief, and turn a new page.

        • Replies: @Talha

        To me, Life (eternal) is the standard by which everything should be measured, and if something leads to nihilism then it is plainly stupid in the strictest sense of the term
         
        Yup. You could simply have screwed up the first-principle premises from the get go. It seems silly not to consider a correction of the initial assumptions. Stubbornly going to something that leads to your destruction seems completely inane and possibly insane.

        I meant there are priorities. Even in Islam there is a hierarchy of priorities - you are allowed to drink alcohol or eat pork to stave of death from thirst or starvation. You are required to break your prayer and warn someone of danger if you see them about to, say, fall into a well (that's the classic medieval example). Choosing a (ever-changing) philosophy over life seems particularly strange especially if you don't have some sort of payoff in the afterlife for it - at least that I can understand, that's the exchange martyrs make.

        "O you who believe, respond to Allah and the Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life. And know that Allah intervenes between a man and his heart and that to Him you will be gathered." (8:24)

        What is interesting is that the word for an atheist in Arabic is mulHid and derives from the tri-letter root lHd. It is the same root for the verb "to dig a grave"...

        Peace.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        If the formula you are running results in the extinction of the species, it's a bad formula.
      184. @SunBakedSuburb
        Agree with you on Boomers (I'm Gen X). The social scene for white men was better in the 1980s when I came of age. But the situation between men and women remains essentially the same. Millennial and Gen Z males tend to have lower testosterone levels than their Boomer and Gen X elders. Women, biologically more sophisticated than men, can detect this. Maybe that's your problem.

        Millennial and Gen Z males tend to have lower testosterone levels than their Boomer and Gen X elders.

        Any reference or studies about that? Could it maybe be the consequence of all those drugs and STDs that Boomer hippies transmitted to the following generations? 😀

        Honestly, I doubt that’s the problem. Also, if women only took testosterone levels into account when choosing a mate, then they would be all “coal burners”. Well, I guess that phenomenon is growing, so there’s that.

        • Replies: @L Woods
        Yeah, my tinder feed is filled with them right now (demanding, naturally, “something serious”). I see them parading around red state Virginia every day. But don’t worry: I’m sure the productive whites they grew up beside will be lucky enough to have the shot to put a ring on one after she’s hit the wall and has a couple of baby quantavii in tow.
      185. @Rosie

        AGREED. That’s what I was getting at too, but getting this across to most women is impossible (Exhibit A here) for this very reason. Catch-22 – it’s some catch, isn’t it?
         
        I understood you perfectly. You think that because women will not have sex with you unless you lie, we like being lied to and you should go on lying to us rather than simply do without casual rolls in the hay.

        There is no hope for any constructive engagement with this kind of morally bankrupt logic.

        Nope, you misunderstood me perfectly, or damn close, or else your memory is going. If you remember conversations within these comment in the past, Rosie, you remember I’m married. I don’t think I need to lie to have sex now. I try not to lie period, but I sure do withhold saying things or explaining things if I know it just ain’t worth the trouble. On the other end of it, I know when to realize what’s coming at me is just the BS that comes at certain times, and I’ve tried to be tough about it and not try to use logic – it’s too stressful.

        As for our single commenters, the ones that have gotten laid the most are the ones that ought to be listened to in this regard. That doesn’t mean they are the happiest about women, but if it’s sex a man is in need of, he’d better do what works. Trying to be the nice guy over and over is hard to get one’s self out of, but it’s insanity, per Einstein, who may not have gotten laid that much himself.

      186. @Rosie

        Maybe that’s your problem.
         
        I think he has made very clear what his problem is. He despises women and thinks we exist to service his sexual needs. Since he thinks women are objects rather than human beings, it would probably be best for everyone to give him a sexbot and be done with him before he hurts someone.

        … it would probably be best for everyone to give him a sexbot and be done with him before he hurts someone.

        Be careful what you wish for, on society’s part. Once those sexbots get even more realistic than they already are, women are going to be in one hell of a pickle, or need one hell of a pickle, one.

        Fred Reed, in one of his every-3rd-one non-stupid columns, wrote about this. Peak Stupidity’s commentary, with a link to Reed in it, here – “Fred Reed says the Sexbots are coming, and the Feminists are worried sick.”

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Fred Reed, in one of his every-3rd-one non-stupid columns, wrote about this. Peak Stupidity’s commentary, with a link to Reed in it, here – “Fred Reed says the Sexbots are coming, and the Feminists are worried sick.”
         
        Frankly, my dear, I'm starting to not give a damn. Kill us off and replace us with sexbots and artificial wombs, already. At least it will spare us the hassle of having to out up with your crap.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrrADTN-dvg
      187. @Dumbo

        Millennial and Gen Z males tend to have lower testosterone levels than their Boomer and Gen X elders.
         
        Any reference or studies about that? Could it maybe be the consequence of all those drugs and STDs that Boomer hippies transmitted to the following generations? :D

        Honestly, I doubt that's the problem. Also, if women only took testosterone levels into account when choosing a mate, then they would be all "coal burners". Well, I guess that phenomenon is growing, so there's that.

        Yeah, my tinder feed is filled with them right now (demanding, naturally, “something serious”). I see them parading around red state Virginia every day. But don’t worry: I’m sure the productive whites they grew up beside will be lucky enough to have the shot to put a ring on one after she’s hit the wall and has a couple of baby quantavii in tow.

        • Replies: @L Woods
        Oh yeah, forgot to add: the latter scenario will be added to census statistics as an intra-racial marriage, which Rosie can then cite as “data” “proving” the fidelity of white women.
        , @216
        Thanks for fattening the pockets of media macher Barry Diller.

        ---

        Getting men to accept open polyandry is a major social engineering effort.

        I've speculated that many incel in their 20s will find superior access in their 30s, when the single mothers become more desperate. At most this option allows 1-2 TFR/male after accounting for the ??? TFR of the previous partner. And many women will say "have and dont want any more".
      188. @Rosie

        Frankly, we shouldn’t have to listen to hours of their inane drivel to fulfill a basic need.
         
        This sounds like a demand to legalize rspe and sex slavery.

        What would one have to advocate to get themselves shunned from the dissident right?

        I’m just wondering, Rosie, if you have ever walked in a man’s moccasins, or any moccasins, for that matter. Everything you write regarding this sex/gender role business is written with a total lack of vision for what the situation is on the other side.

        Would you be happy if your husband insisted you listen carefully as he talked about how he was going to build the fire-wood shelter or what exact tools he was going to use, in what order, to work on the yard, etc., or the problems with some of the NFL draft picks this year? I mean, for an hour at a time. It’s probably inane drivel to you. What if he demanded you do this before he’d go ahead and pay the bills or come home each night?

        How about think of that golden rule, but instead of imagining how your husband would feel if you did this or that, if he were a woman, try to imagine that he is a man, and what he wants, for a change?

        You are simply spoiled, and I completely understand when men get sick of spoiling Western woman.

      189. @AaronB
        Yeah, and it's interesting how the more abstract, rational, Hellenistic one becomes, the less likely to have a family, children, etc.

        Utu has quietly accepted the demise of Western civilization as a result of clinging to Enlightenment rationalism, out of the conviction that it's still "better" even if it leads to death and nihilism (on another thread).

        Another nihilistic German made the same point to me a while ago.

        It's interesting how they prefer death out of some abstract sense that a philosophy that leads to death is somehow more right - a third German, German reader, has the same attitude.

        To me, Life (eternal) is the standard by which everything should be measured, and if something leads to nihilism then it is plainly stupid in the strictest sense of the term - as if our human minds can access the deepest reaches of reality, and judge life as worthless because of some abstract logical ideas!

        It seems to me a case of satanic Pride - if the unaided human logical faculty cannot discover meaning, then by God we will die. Complete rejection of dependence on a higher Power.

        Well, we each choose our fate, and the majority of whites gave chosen to die. So be it. Let's get a move on it, they can have their "noble" death - lets put the whole world out of its misery and push Western civ over the cliff its threatening to jump from, and let the nightmare spectacle end.

        The world can sigh in relief, and turn a new page.

        To me, Life (eternal) is the standard by which everything should be measured, and if something leads to nihilism then it is plainly stupid in the strictest sense of the term

        Yup. You could simply have screwed up the first-principle premises from the get go. It seems silly not to consider a correction of the initial assumptions. Stubbornly going to something that leads to your destruction seems completely inane and possibly insane.

        I meant there are priorities. Even in Islam there is a hierarchy of priorities – you are allowed to drink alcohol or eat pork to stave of death from thirst or starvation. You are required to break your prayer and warn someone of danger if you see them about to, say, fall into a well (that’s the classic medieval example). Choosing a (ever-changing) philosophy over life seems particularly strange especially if you don’t have some sort of payoff in the afterlife for it – at least that I can understand, that’s the exchange martyrs make.

        “O you who believe, respond to Allah and the Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life. And know that Allah intervenes between a man and his heart and that to Him you will be gathered.” (8:24)

        What is interesting is that the word for an atheist in Arabic is mulHid and derives from the tri-letter root lHd. It is the same root for the verb “to dig a grave”…

        Peace.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        How's alcohol gonna' keep you from dying of thirst, Talha? I'm pretty sure that's just an excuse to get plastered.
        , @AaronB
        Right, Western Civ has chosen to die. There is no saving it. We can only flee the sinking ship. And I have.

        But it's death is still an interesting phenomenon that I do not fully understand.

        From what I can make out, any civilization that fully adopts Greek rationalism has a short life. That much is clear, but it does not go deep enough.

        Materialism may be true or false, but I can't really understand emotional allegiance to it. It seems like the sort of thing one might accept so long as it works, but not the kind of thing one would love and cling to with passion even when it appears to no longer work.

        And as you note, its quite easy to question first assumptions when it comes to materialism - its actually been repeatedly proven to be illogical by the best minds, and even science!

        Yet clearly materialism has precisely an emotional appeal for them - not a logical appeal. They are not martyrs for the truth. They love materialism. It does something extremely important for them. But what? They are willing to die rather than give it up.

        I don't feel comfortable merely saying they are insane and writing them off.

        Reading Bruce Charltons blog has given me some clues - he's one of the few Westerners who realizes something is wrong and made a genuine attempt to return to religion. But he found that he couldn't do it. Instead, he ended up inventing his own religion, and the centerpiece of his invented religion is ego and pride, and a kind of smuggled in materialism, that gets more narcissistic and bizarre by the day.

        He found he could not submit to a higher Power, could not surrender his pride.

        Is that what materialism does for them?

        Lately, I am experimenting with simple Faith - no philosophy, no explanation. It goes so completely against modern ways of thinking! Yet it is an ancient virtue, an old "mode of being" that we have lost the habit for.

        St Augustine says we are not primarily thinking beings, but loving and feeling beings.

        I am an odd Jew, quoting St Augustine :) Yet I am discovering that a lot of Judaism has been elaborated in interaction with Christian and Sufi thinkers.

        Jews are supposed to be very intellectual, but I think Judaism excels most in the poetic and Faith based aspects of religion - the Talmud is intricate, but not more so than St Thomas Aquinas. But the Psalms are unparalleled.
      190. @Achmed E. Newman

        ... it would probably be best for everyone to give him a sexbot and be done with him before he hurts someone.
         
        Be careful what you wish for, on society's part. Once those sexbots get even more realistic than they already are, women are going to be in one hell of a pickle, or need one hell of a pickle, one.

        Fred Reed, in one of his every-3rd-one non-stupid columns, wrote about this. Peak Stupidity's commentary, with a link to Reed in it, here - "Fred Reed says the Sexbots are coming, and the Feminists are worried sick."

        Fred Reed, in one of his every-3rd-one non-stupid columns, wrote about this. Peak Stupidity’s commentary, with a link to Reed in it, here – “Fred Reed says the Sexbots are coming, and the Feminists are worried sick.”

        Frankly, my dear, I’m starting to not give a damn. Kill us off and replace us with sexbots and artificial wombs, already. At least it will spare us the hassle of having to out up with your crap.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        Is that wood split yet? How about the water pump on the old Hyundai? What? Can't get that pickle jar open? I thought you didn't like pickles ... ohhh....

        I hear Buddy Holly, but what's that other sound:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j53OPR-cuYY
      191. @Peter Frost
        Among singles between the ages of 20 and 40 there are more men than women. The imbalance is even greater if we look at childless singles. If you don't believe me, click on this link:

        http://jonathansoma.com/singles/

        Involuntary celibacy is inevitable among many young and middle-aged men. In this respect, nothing will change if we get rid of feminism, atheism, and porn. We'll just have a lot of nice, church-going celibates.

        There is, in fact, no easy solution. We could improve things a bit by making divorce more difficult (and preventing a lot of older men from re-entering the mate market). We could also make sure that immigration is gender-balanced (and not dominanted by young single men). That would improve things ... a bit. Unfortunately, the main driver of this imbalance in the mate market is the decline in male mortality. Fewer young boys are dying in childhood, and fewer young men are dying in wars, traffic accidents, and workplace accidents.

        I wrote about this several years back:

        http://www.unz.com/pfrost/young-male-and-single/

        and fewer young men are dying in wars

        Fixable with little effort.

      192. @L Woods
        Yeah, my tinder feed is filled with them right now (demanding, naturally, “something serious”). I see them parading around red state Virginia every day. But don’t worry: I’m sure the productive whites they grew up beside will be lucky enough to have the shot to put a ring on one after she’s hit the wall and has a couple of baby quantavii in tow.

        Oh yeah, forgot to add: the latter scenario will be added to census statistics as an intra-racial marriage, which Rosie can then cite as “data” “proving” the fidelity of white women.

      193. @Peter Frost
        Among singles between the ages of 20 and 40 there are more men than women. The imbalance is even greater if we look at childless singles. If you don't believe me, click on this link:

        http://jonathansoma.com/singles/

        Involuntary celibacy is inevitable among many young and middle-aged men. In this respect, nothing will change if we get rid of feminism, atheism, and porn. We'll just have a lot of nice, church-going celibates.

        There is, in fact, no easy solution. We could improve things a bit by making divorce more difficult (and preventing a lot of older men from re-entering the mate market). We could also make sure that immigration is gender-balanced (and not dominanted by young single men). That would improve things ... a bit. Unfortunately, the main driver of this imbalance in the mate market is the decline in male mortality. Fewer young boys are dying in childhood, and fewer young men are dying in wars, traffic accidents, and workplace accidents.

        I wrote about this several years back:

        http://www.unz.com/pfrost/young-male-and-single/

        There are roughly 1.08 males born for every female. That does not even come close to explaining what we’re seeing here.

      194. @Screwtape
        If by ‘raging slut’ you mean Sexually Empowered Women, then they are in plain view.

        Usually seen staring into their handheld skinner boxes, where they are tapping the bar of the latest crop of chads. Hoping, though increasingly fleetingly, that they might convert a bang into the boyfriend experience.

        No sluts for you! Luckily, time is on the side of the sexless male.

        As long as he is productive during his sexless years and maintains a disciplined future time preference he can parlay his 401k and sensible sedan into beta bux when the SEW is ready to exchange her last two eggs for a downshift in her awesome career and a habitat in a zip code with “good schools”.

        If he is really smart he will also be attending church, where he will receive instructions on exactly what he needs to do to help a SEW stick the landing. Just be patient grasshopper, it is gods will.

        “SEW”

        I think a better term is the Sexually Overpowered Woman,” or SOW for short.

        But you’re definitely on to something.

      195. @Rosie

        Fred Reed, in one of his every-3rd-one non-stupid columns, wrote about this. Peak Stupidity’s commentary, with a link to Reed in it, here – “Fred Reed says the Sexbots are coming, and the Feminists are worried sick.”
         
        Frankly, my dear, I'm starting to not give a damn. Kill us off and replace us with sexbots and artificial wombs, already. At least it will spare us the hassle of having to out up with your crap.

        Is that wood split yet? How about the water pump on the old Hyundai? What? Can’t get that pickle jar open? I thought you didn’t like pickles … ohhh….

        I hear Buddy Holly, but what’s that other sound:

      196. @Talha

        To me, Life (eternal) is the standard by which everything should be measured, and if something leads to nihilism then it is plainly stupid in the strictest sense of the term
         
        Yup. You could simply have screwed up the first-principle premises from the get go. It seems silly not to consider a correction of the initial assumptions. Stubbornly going to something that leads to your destruction seems completely inane and possibly insane.

        I meant there are priorities. Even in Islam there is a hierarchy of priorities - you are allowed to drink alcohol or eat pork to stave of death from thirst or starvation. You are required to break your prayer and warn someone of danger if you see them about to, say, fall into a well (that's the classic medieval example). Choosing a (ever-changing) philosophy over life seems particularly strange especially if you don't have some sort of payoff in the afterlife for it - at least that I can understand, that's the exchange martyrs make.

        "O you who believe, respond to Allah and the Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life. And know that Allah intervenes between a man and his heart and that to Him you will be gathered." (8:24)

        What is interesting is that the word for an atheist in Arabic is mulHid and derives from the tri-letter root lHd. It is the same root for the verb "to dig a grave"...

        Peace.

        How’s alcohol gonna’ keep you from dying of thirst, Talha? I’m pretty sure that’s just an excuse to get plastered.

        • Replies: @Talha
        If you are in a desert and have nothing to drink and some random guy comes up and all he has to offer is wine, you can drink up to the point that it will save your life - getting wasted is not the goal.

        Peace.
      197. @L Woods
        While I'm sure you're correct about underreporting, I'm pretty sure the phenomenon remains so today and for the same reasons. In fact, I'd say incels are more stigmatized (even demonized) than ever now that they're somewhat out of the shadows.

        Moreover, like unemployment, these figures fail to capture the equivalent of underemployment -- the extent to which men are forced to date far down or go to ridiculous contrivances to eke out anything at all.

        Generally the party line is still basically that we're not even allowed to think of this as a problem -- to do so evokes the boilerplate panoply of posturing, humblebrag, feminist hysteria etc that accompanies any mention of the issue (an expression of the particular brand of moral(ist) outrage reserved for low status males who exhibit signs of not knowing their place). Somehow, The Pay Gap is the defining injustice of our times, but this sort of gross inequity is just fine (and you will think so or else).

        I have more respect for incels who stay alone than those who date far down. The entire dating marketplace would be a lot better if men were even half as selective as women are.

        • Replies: @L Woods
        I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen a white guy in the dmv who wasn’t.
      198. @Achmed E. Newman
        How's alcohol gonna' keep you from dying of thirst, Talha? I'm pretty sure that's just an excuse to get plastered.

        If you are in a desert and have nothing to drink and some random guy comes up and all he has to offer is wine, you can drink up to the point that it will save your life – getting wasted is not the goal.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        It's just gonna dehydrate you, Talha. That's my point. It'd be a dumb idea to drink wine to quench one's thirst. You wouldn't know though, if you've never had a hang-over, so don't feel bad about it.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        That example probably also makes more sense in a medieval context, when beer and wine both often tended to be safer for human consumption than water because of the fermentation process.
      199. @L Woods
        This is widely assumed, but I just don't see in every day life that women are gravitating towards middle class providers (at least while they're still in their prime reproductive years). Not a week goes by in my Virginia exurb where I don't see an attractive teenaged/early twenties girl with an aspiring rapper or ethnically ambiguous chad in tow.

        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers. If this were to happen it would be a near utopia. Lower and middle class women would only pick decent responsible men who would make great husbands and fathers. Picking the exciting bad boy would be far too risky. The family would make a complete comeback and children would be raised by two parents including a positve male role model who loves them.

        • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
        • Replies: @Rosie

        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers.
         
        Hmm. If not having welfare would be utopia, one wonders why it was ever instituted. You'd think it would never have been necessary.
        , @Rosie

        Lower and middle class women would only pick decent responsible men who would make great husbands and fathers. Picking the exciting bad boy would be far too risky.
         
        When men abandon their pregnant girlfriends, it's her fault for choosing the wrong guy! In no event ever are men to blame for anything.
        , @Toronto Russian

        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers.
         
        Ready for more Rosalie Prudents in the 21st century ?

        There was a real mystery in this affair which neither the jury, nor the president, nor the public prosecutor himself could understand.

        The girl Prudent (Rosalie), servant at the Varambots', of Nantes, having become enceinte without the knowledge of her masters, had, during the night, killed and buried her child in the garden.

        It was the usual story of the infanticides committed by servant girls. But there was one inexplicable circumstance about this one. When the police searched the girl Prudent's room they discovered a complete infant's outfit, made by Rosalie herself, who had spent her nights for the last three months in cutting and sewing it. The grocer from whom she had bought her candles, out of her own wages, for this long piece of work had come to testify. It came out, moreover, that the sage-femme of the district, informed by Rosalie of her condition, had given her all necessary instructions and counsel in case the event should happen at a time when it might not be possible to get help. She had also procured a place at Poissy for the girl Prudent, who foresaw that her present employers would discharge her, for the Varambot couple did not trifle with morality.

        https://americanliterature.com/author/guy-de-maupassant/short-story/rosalie-prudent
         
        I won't spoil the rather obvious plot twist, but when we read the girl's words we know she was simple-minded and didn't quite understand what the man was going to do with her, so couldn't have avoided it by 'behaving responsibly.' The old-timey translation left the words 'pregnant' and 'midwife' in French if you wondered.
      200. @Jay Fink
        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers. If this were to happen it would be a near utopia. Lower and middle class women would only pick decent responsible men who would make great husbands and fathers. Picking the exciting bad boy would be far too risky. The family would make a complete comeback and children would be raised by two parents including a positve male role model who loves them.

        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers.

        Hmm. If not having welfare would be utopia, one wonders why it was ever instituted. You’d think it would never have been necessary.

        • Replies: @Jay Fink
        Welfare was instituted because the government wanted to replace the father. They gain power this way.
        , @Achmed E. Newman
        Do you know any history? It was implemented so that Lyndon Scumbag Johnson could "have the n***rs voting Democrat for the next 50 years." It sure as hell wasn't implemented to help society in general. That'd have been really stupid.
      201. @Screwtape
        If by ‘raging slut’ you mean Sexually Empowered Women, then they are in plain view.

        Usually seen staring into their handheld skinner boxes, where they are tapping the bar of the latest crop of chads. Hoping, though increasingly fleetingly, that they might convert a bang into the boyfriend experience.

        No sluts for you! Luckily, time is on the side of the sexless male.

        As long as he is productive during his sexless years and maintains a disciplined future time preference he can parlay his 401k and sensible sedan into beta bux when the SEW is ready to exchange her last two eggs for a downshift in her awesome career and a habitat in a zip code with “good schools”.

        If he is really smart he will also be attending church, where he will receive instructions on exactly what he needs to do to help a SEW stick the landing. Just be patient grasshopper, it is gods will.

        You nailed it…right down to the “good schools”. My brother married a single mother and they are relocating. She is all over Facebook talking about how important “good schools” are in choosing what house to purchase.

        • Replies: @Talha
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=85bfDKudxV4

        Peace.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        greatschools.org tracks a slew of stats on every public (and many private) school in the US. I'm sure you could have some fun with your sister-in-law by simply posting links to the demographic pages of the school the kid(s) is currently going to and the one (t)he(y) is going to attend once they move.
      202. @Rosie

        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers.
         
        Hmm. If not having welfare would be utopia, one wonders why it was ever instituted. You'd think it would never have been necessary.

        Welfare was instituted because the government wanted to replace the father. They gain power this way.

      203. @216
        It would be interesting if we could measure "male thirst"

        Browser history would probably get you most of the way there!

      204. @Jay Fink
        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers. If this were to happen it would be a near utopia. Lower and middle class women would only pick decent responsible men who would make great husbands and fathers. Picking the exciting bad boy would be far too risky. The family would make a complete comeback and children would be raised by two parents including a positve male role model who loves them.

        Lower and middle class women would only pick decent responsible men who would make great husbands and fathers. Picking the exciting bad boy would be far too risky.

        When men abandon their pregnant girlfriends, it’s her fault for choosing the wrong guy! In no event ever are men to blame for anything.

        • Replies: @216
        https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/

        You must live in ClownWorld-2, where superman is in the USSR.

        Male abandonment was far more common in the 19th century than today, we have something called child support orders and dna testing.

        Male behavior is being increasingly policed, and you think somehow that your second-wave feminism with a Nazi garnish is edgy.
        , @Anonymous
        Generally, responsible provider type men don't abandon their pregnant girlfriends. In fact, they typically don't get them pregnant in the first place before marriage. It's irresponsible types that do, and they're often on the hook for child support payments and thus are "blamed" and held responsible. It's just that even though they're on the hook, they simply don't work or earn enough, and the rest of society and other men are taxed to support the single mother and her spawn by this man. Unless she was raped, it is her fault, but she's not held responsible but is in fact rewarded for her choices.

        You're basically an apologist for a black style social structure, which is strange since only the lowest tier of underclass whites behaves that way.
      205. @Talha

        I dismissed them as deluded hysterics at the time but it turns out I was very, very wrong.
         
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=IYEyv5a_3LM

        By the way, I oppose theocracy - clerics should NOT be running governments. That’s not their job; they should be serving in more an advisory and quasi-legislative-judicial capacity (preferably completely free from government institutions or influence - especially with regards to money).

        To my Mennonite and Muslim brothers, I feel riper for conversion than at any other time in my life up to this point.
         
        If that’s the choice, go Muzzie. I have a deep respect for Mennonites for their adherence to their convictions, but if we are the two left standing...well, let’s just say that; 1) they literally are the platinum-standard model dhimmi citizens and 2) jizyah can be paid in kind (produce, farm animals, etc. at least for Hanafis - though wine, pigs and dead animals are NOT accepted) in lieu of military service.

        They also supply a large amount of the halal meat in the Midwest; they are the go to people because of their high ethical standards in treatment of animals.

        Peace.

        This new secular religion seems far worse than either of them.

        • Agree: Talha
      206. @Thulean Friend
        Roasties' Revenge?

        https://tribune.com.pk/story/1993160/4-single-women-happier-lives-says-study/

        “Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they’re asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: really miserable,” Dolan said on the sidelines of the Hay Festival in Wales on Sunday.

        “We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time but I am going to do a massive disservice to that science and just say: If you’re a man, you should probably get married but if you’re a woman, don’t bother.”

        Married men take fewer risks and “calm down” and therefore are healthier than their single counterparts, whereas women did not see the same benefits. Women’s health was mainly unaffected by marriage, but middle-aged married women reported more mental and physical problems than single ones.

        “You take less risks, you earn more money at work and you live a little longer. She, on the other hand, has to put up with that and she dies sooner than if she never married. The healthiest and happiest population subgroups are women who never married or had children,” Dolan stated.
         
      207. @Talha
        Different religion, different clerics. If I recall, Mazarin (don’t know enough about the other person) was given some royal title and put in charge of a heck of a lot of government policy; this is not at all what I’m talking about. This is exactly what should be avoided, namely putting clerics in charge of governmental responsibilities.

        This probably explains the Sunni view better than most; getting exiled, imprisoned, tortured or even killed by the ruling authorities was honestly a right of passage for many of our most well-known scholars:
        https://youtube.com/watch?v=zwMXvSBNbU4

        The reason why many Muslims love our ulema is because of how closely they have held the interests of the public in mind and the fact that they live very down-to-earth, common lives without fanfare. This is one of the top scholars of the Hanafi school in the entire world on a recent trip to Jordan, resting on the floor of a mosque at the age of near-80:
        https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEUN9D3XgAE6G8G.jpg

        The ones that associate with governments and cozy up to rulers and get nice fat bonuses for giving the governments fatwas that they want...those guys are usually derisively called “scholars for dollars”.

        Peace.

        Great phrase, “scholars for dollars”. Thanks.

      208. @Lo
        These studies have an agenda, convincing women it is a good idea to delay marriage to slow down the population growth. Reality is the opposite.

        But what’s better than cubicle work, Netflix, and box wine? Nothing–so let’s do it for the next sixty years!

      209. @Talha

        To me, Life (eternal) is the standard by which everything should be measured, and if something leads to nihilism then it is plainly stupid in the strictest sense of the term
         
        Yup. You could simply have screwed up the first-principle premises from the get go. It seems silly not to consider a correction of the initial assumptions. Stubbornly going to something that leads to your destruction seems completely inane and possibly insane.

        I meant there are priorities. Even in Islam there is a hierarchy of priorities - you are allowed to drink alcohol or eat pork to stave of death from thirst or starvation. You are required to break your prayer and warn someone of danger if you see them about to, say, fall into a well (that's the classic medieval example). Choosing a (ever-changing) philosophy over life seems particularly strange especially if you don't have some sort of payoff in the afterlife for it - at least that I can understand, that's the exchange martyrs make.

        "O you who believe, respond to Allah and the Messenger when he calls you to that which gives you life. And know that Allah intervenes between a man and his heart and that to Him you will be gathered." (8:24)

        What is interesting is that the word for an atheist in Arabic is mulHid and derives from the tri-letter root lHd. It is the same root for the verb "to dig a grave"...

        Peace.

        Right, Western Civ has chosen to die. There is no saving it. We can only flee the sinking ship. And I have.

        But it’s death is still an interesting phenomenon that I do not fully understand.

        From what I can make out, any civilization that fully adopts Greek rationalism has a short life. That much is clear, but it does not go deep enough.

        Materialism may be true or false, but I can’t really understand emotional allegiance to it. It seems like the sort of thing one might accept so long as it works, but not the kind of thing one would love and cling to with passion even when it appears to no longer work.

        And as you note, its quite easy to question first assumptions when it comes to materialism – its actually been repeatedly proven to be illogical by the best minds, and even science!

        Yet clearly materialism has precisely an emotional appeal for them – not a logical appeal. They are not martyrs for the truth. They love materialism. It does something extremely important for them. But what? They are willing to die rather than give it up.

        I don’t feel comfortable merely saying they are insane and writing them off.

        Reading Bruce Charltons blog has given me some clues – he’s one of the few Westerners who realizes something is wrong and made a genuine attempt to return to religion. But he found that he couldn’t do it. Instead, he ended up inventing his own religion, and the centerpiece of his invented religion is ego and pride, and a kind of smuggled in materialism, that gets more narcissistic and bizarre by the day.

        He found he could not submit to a higher Power, could not surrender his pride.

        Is that what materialism does for them?

        Lately, I am experimenting with simple Faith – no philosophy, no explanation. It goes so completely against modern ways of thinking! Yet it is an ancient virtue, an old “mode of being” that we have lost the habit for.

        St Augustine says we are not primarily thinking beings, but loving and feeling beings.

        I am an odd Jew, quoting St Augustine 🙂 Yet I am discovering that a lot of Judaism has been elaborated in interaction with Christian and Sufi thinkers.

        Jews are supposed to be very intellectual, but I think Judaism excels most in the poetic and Faith based aspects of religion – the Talmud is intricate, but not more so than St Thomas Aquinas. But the Psalms are unparalleled.

        • Replies: @Talha

        any civilization that fully adopts Greek rationalism has a short life
         
        One of the reasons why I'm glad our Persian polymaths chewed on Greek philosophy for a bit, swallowed what they liked and spit out the rest.

        Yet clearly materialism has precisely an emotional appeal for them – not a logical appeal.
         
        That's a good point.

        he ended up inventing his own religion, and the centerpiece of his invented religion is ego and pride
         
        That's usually the way it goes - everyone serves some master...
        "Have you seen the one who has chosen his own desires as his lord?..." (45:23)

        Lately, I am experimenting with simple Faith – no philosophy, no explanation.
         
        https://ruhaniqalb.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/fakhruddin-razi-and-the-faith-of-the-old-woman1.png

        St Augustine says we are not primarily thinking beings, but loving and feeling beings.
         
        After years of searching and pondering, Imam Ghazali (ra) had come to the conclusion that one's faith is not firm simply as an intellectual endeavor. His conclusion was that the Sufis are the ones that truly had the strongest connection with the Divine, had truly tasted the fruits of faith and it was beyond mental exercises.

        in interaction with Christian and Sufi thinkers
         
        This is the way of the human enterprise and market of ideas. Few can claim to have not gleaned wisdom and knowledge from other cultures.

        the Psalms are unparalleled
         
        Even in the English rendition, they are quite poetic. The Qur'an mentions that God commanded nature to join him in his praises:
        "We bestowed upon David great favor. We said, 'O mountains and birds! Echo him in celebrating Our praise. And We softened iron for him." (34:10)

        Must have been something to witness in real life, eh?

        I was wondering, in the original Hebrew, is it melodic and rhythmic? And do people render it in song or melody? I recently came across a very nice rendition of a chapter of the Qur'an that you might enjoy (under the MORE tag).

        Peace.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8DVFQJ6GT8
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Aliyah or are you in Asia?

        I'm a Stoic. It's not as though the Western tradition does not offer any pre-enlightenment alternatives to the materialism problem.
        , @notanon

        Western Civ has chosen to die.
         
        it was poisoned from the inside

        like Sumer, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Rome, Byzantium etc.
      210. @Disordered Deacon
        i understand, as jizyah we have some rights.

        some.

        you might understand the apprehension, then. even if we keep our bacon and wine.
        just like i understand the mutual hate for Maher we seem to happily share.

        the Templars usually negotiated when needed, however. meaning, there had been too much bloodshed already. nevertheless you get my point. i guess AE picked Mennonite because they seem like the vaunted fertility ideal for non-Catholic traditionalists - and yes, that seems an oxymoron to me too.

        Indeed. I’d have gone with Mormonism instead, but even they are now struggling to stay above replacement level fertility.

      211. @anon
        How do you know that everyone who does not have sex is an "incel"? Ever heard about voluntary celibacy? Not everyone lives for nothing else that sex, even with non stop degenerate media pushing all sex all the time.

        Fair. Incel is useful shorthand, but just as not all who wander are lost so not all who abstain are omega.

      212. @Jay Fink
        You nailed it...right down to the "good schools". My brother married a single mother and they are relocating. She is all over Facebook talking about how important "good schools" are in choosing what house to purchase.
      213. @Talha
        If you are in a desert and have nothing to drink and some random guy comes up and all he has to offer is wine, you can drink up to the point that it will save your life - getting wasted is not the goal.

        Peace.

        It’s just gonna dehydrate you, Talha. That’s my point. It’d be a dumb idea to drink wine to quench one’s thirst. You wouldn’t know though, if you’ve never had a hang-over, so don’t feel bad about it.

        • Replies: @Talha
        Yeah, I have no clue - I’m just telling you what the books say.

        Peace.
      214. @Jay Fink
        I have more respect for incels who stay alone than those who date far down. The entire dating marketplace would be a lot better if men were even half as selective as women are.

        I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen a white guy in the dmv who wasn’t.

      215. @Rosie

        This is why my #1 wish (that I know will never happen unfortunately) is that all welfare, food stamps and tax credits would be cut off for single mothers.
         
        Hmm. If not having welfare would be utopia, one wonders why it was ever instituted. You'd think it would never have been necessary.

        Do you know any history? It was implemented so that Lyndon Scumbag Johnson could “have the n***rs voting Democrat for the next 50 years.” It sure as hell wasn’t implemented to help society in general. That’d have been really stupid.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Do you know any history?
         
        Why did the Swedes set up a welfare system? They didn't have any "n***rs"
        , @notanon
        welfare was instituted by good men to provide for those women abandoned by cads but...

        whatever you subsidize you get more of.

        it's not a simple problem.
      216. @Achmed E. Newman
        It's just gonna dehydrate you, Talha. That's my point. It'd be a dumb idea to drink wine to quench one's thirst. You wouldn't know though, if you've never had a hang-over, so don't feel bad about it.

        Yeah, I have no clue – I’m just telling you what the books say.

        Peace.

        • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
        The "books" must not have been written by anyone with a medical background. Anyway, I get the point that you allowed to break the rules as lifesaving measures.
      217. @Achmed E. Newman
        Do you know any history? It was implemented so that Lyndon Scumbag Johnson could "have the n***rs voting Democrat for the next 50 years." It sure as hell wasn't implemented to help society in general. That'd have been really stupid.

        Do you know any history?

        Why did the Swedes set up a welfare system? They didn’t have any “n***rs”

      218. US history. We had the most powerful economy the world had ever seen, until the Socialism. (Granted, going off sound money was part of the problem too.)

        Sweden’s Socialism was set up because the average Swede is obviously politically retarded. It was the cause of their downfall even without the idiotic immigration policy, but the latter just speeded things up. It really helped them too, that the US was defending Europe against the Commies for 40 years.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        US history. We had the most powerful economy the world had ever seen
         
        And lots of shotgun marriages. (Without welfare, you're going to need those.)
      219. @Talha
        Yeah, I have no clue - I’m just telling you what the books say.

        Peace.

        The “books” must not have been written by anyone with a medical background. Anyway, I get the point that you allowed to break the rules as lifesaving measures.

      220. @Achmed E. Newman
        US history. We had the most powerful economy the world had ever seen, until the Socialism. (Granted, going off sound money was part of the problem too.)

        Sweden's Socialism was set up because the average Swede is obviously politically retarded. It was the cause of their downfall even without the idiotic immigration policy, but the latter just speeded things up. It really helped them too, that the US was defending Europe against the Commies for 40 years.

        US history. We had the most powerful economy the world had ever seen

        And lots of shotgun marriages. (Without welfare, you’re going to need those.)

      221. @Peter Frost
        Among singles between the ages of 20 and 40 there are more men than women. The imbalance is even greater if we look at childless singles. If you don't believe me, click on this link:

        http://jonathansoma.com/singles/

        Involuntary celibacy is inevitable among many young and middle-aged men. In this respect, nothing will change if we get rid of feminism, atheism, and porn. We'll just have a lot of nice, church-going celibates.

        There is, in fact, no easy solution. We could improve things a bit by making divorce more difficult (and preventing a lot of older men from re-entering the mate market). We could also make sure that immigration is gender-balanced (and not dominanted by young single men). That would improve things ... a bit. Unfortunately, the main driver of this imbalance in the mate market is the decline in male mortality. Fewer young boys are dying in childhood, and fewer young men are dying in wars, traffic accidents, and workplace accidents.

        I wrote about this several years back:

        http://www.unz.com/pfrost/young-male-and-single/

        Short of locking up even more young black men, creating an 84th visa category for young, single Asian women, and hand it out like candy, it looks like you’re right.

      222. @Rosie

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem
         
        For the millionth time, that is pure projection:

        https://beta.techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/male-messaging-curve.png

        I’ve heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.
         
        Bad idea.

        https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/pere.12118

        When men have all the power in the dating market, you get a breakdown in civilized family life. Porn has given men more options, and therefore too much power. Men who really just want sex can get a reasonably satisfying substitute from the comfort and psychological safety of their own home. Women cannot get what we want from any other than a real flesh-and-blood Male. (Yes, we love our cats, but they are not a substitute for a man.)

        Women are going to be in big trouble when sexbots really start coming onto the scene.

        • Replies: @Rosie

        Women are going to be in big trouble when sexbots really start coming onto the scene.
         
        Only if you make some very unflattering assumptions about men's nature, which may well be warranted, judging from this comment thread.
      223. @Talha
        My teachers have taught me that contentment can indeed be found in the world, but happiness is elusive and ephemeral. This world wasn’t made for happiness, it is the abode of trials (part of its purpose is to break your heart so you don’t become too attached to it) - it simply is not meant for that. The next life; that is a different matter altogether.

        Kierkegaard is always good to hear from.

        Peace.

        Nothing happens to any man that he is not fitted by nature to bear.

        (I always find it good to hear from Marcus Aurelius, too. Hope you don’t mind.)

        • Replies: @Anonymoose
        Spell it as MARCVS AVRELIVS
      224. @Audacious Epigone
        Women are going to be in big trouble when sexbots really start coming onto the scene.

        Women are going to be in big trouble when sexbots really start coming onto the scene.

        Only if you make some very unflattering assumptions about men’s nature, which may well be warranted, judging from this comment thread.

        • Replies: @216
        Sexbots for women already exist. Amazon is the largest retailer.

        Since you want pron banned at risk of destabilization, we shall also take away these "marital aids".
        , @Audacious Epigone
        It will likely change the dynamic. It's conceivable that it will make things healthier, at least among the reduced number of people who still engage in pair bonding. Instead of shackling up for lust--sexbots for that--people will climb on two by two to fulfill their desires to procreate and nurture.
      225. @L Woods
        Women, when given the latitude to do so, reward the worst in men, both between and within individuals -- everything that is base, animal, foul, worthless and evil, that suited to claw one's way atop a hierarchy of baboons or chimpanzees. It's not worth arguing this point: it's obviously, self-evidentally true, and everyone reading this knows it. The only reason to defend the supposed sanctity of female "choice" is posturing and malice -- the opportunity to punch down to some anonymous random on the internet. It's that base, and that petty, and why I have zero patience for it. The concept of self-serving virtue signaling is familiar enough around these parts when it comes to race, for example, but the Women are Wonderful Bias means it lives on among the supposed dissidents in these parts. Get over yourselves -- the very fact that you read this site makes you as lowly as the rest of us.

        Success, dominance, self-confidence–isn’t it hyperbolic to describe these things as “the worst in men”?

        • Replies: @L Woods
        Even phrased that euphemistically, given what those qualities actually entail, no, not really.
      226. @Abelard Lindsey
        This guy's blog has useful advice on losing the weight and getting into shape:

        https://roguehealthandfitness.com/

        I have also found that chelation with ALA (alpha-lipoic-acid) also worked for me:

        www.noamalgam.com

        The best place for supplements is LEF at:

        www.lef.org

        It seems to me it would be useful to shift this discussion over to why obesity has become so prevalent in the U.S. over the past 30 years. I think a lot of this "incel" problem is due to nothing more than so many young people (both boys and girls) being overweight and out of shape.

        Dennis Mangan is great. He used to have a blog entitled Mangan’s Miscellany that was one of my favorite reads. From strength to strength, that guy.

      227. Anonymous[113] • Disclaimer says:
        @Dumbo
        Yes. The issue is not about being "happy" or not, personal "happiness" may never be achieved one way or another, whatever you do ("marry, you will regret it, don't marry, you will regret it" - Kierkegaard). Maternity requires sacrifice and sometimes pain, but it is something essential.

        I am reminded now of a scene of the film "Nostalgia" by Tarkovsky, perhaps not one of his best movies, but anyway, in this scene a childless single woman in her thirties goes to a Church, the priest tells her that in his view "women are made to have children and raise them, with patience and sacrifice. I know, you want to be happy, but there are more important things." She doesn't like the answer.

        Stalker and Nostlaghia are Tarkovsky’s best films imo.

      228. @Rosie

        It seems to me it would be useful to shift this discussion over to why obesity has become so prevalent in the U.S. over the past 30 years. I think a lot of this “incel” problem is due to nothing more than so many young people (both boys and girls) being overweight and out of shape.
         
        BINGO!

        We need a non dehumanizing rediscovery of the importance of health for it's own sake, the joy of inhabiting a healthy and powerful body. Physical attractiveness, and sex, would follow from that.

        For that, we would need a national socialist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people.

        National socialist? Really, must you?

        How about a populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people? Or just a government that does?

        • Agree: iffen
        • Replies: @Anonymoose
        What's wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.
        , @Twinkie

        National socialist? Really, must you?
         
        Yes, she must. Did you not realize that she sees just about everyone who disagrees with her as an enemy in need of re-education or exclusion/extermination?

        Was her non-ironic idea that cads should be beaten up my her male relatives not a clue?

        She wants a white Pakistan in which religion is replaced by white-ness (as she defines it of course).
        , @Rosie

        How about a populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people? Or just a government that does?
         
        A populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people (nationalist) is not much good unless it is also socialist. We are facing down an unemployment catastrophe that is going to require thinking outside the small-government box, however Achmed might feel about that.

        I'm tired of Jews telling me what words and phrases I can and can't use. Observing their taboos only strengthens them. Soon, "populist" will be off limits, too.
      229. @L Woods

        So, contra Rosie, there is a pro-Mgtow argument for tradcons. Older divorced/bachelor men, the early base of mgtow, need to be shamed away from remarriage and from pursuing younger women.
         
        Lmao, go to hell dude. “Nobody owes you anything” is all I ever heard when I was young. I’ll be damned if I’m going to shirk from getting mine now.

        Some ox will be gored.

        Right now that ox is the younger beta males.

        That is not tenable, even all of the consumerist distractions of modernity cannot quell the growing political radicalism.

      230. 216 says:
        @Peter Frost
        Among singles between the ages of 20 and 40 there are more men than women. The imbalance is even greater if we look at childless singles. If you don't believe me, click on this link:

        http://jonathansoma.com/singles/

        Involuntary celibacy is inevitable among many young and middle-aged men. In this respect, nothing will change if we get rid of feminism, atheism, and porn. We'll just have a lot of nice, church-going celibates.

        There is, in fact, no easy solution. We could improve things a bit by making divorce more difficult (and preventing a lot of older men from re-entering the mate market). We could also make sure that immigration is gender-balanced (and not dominanted by young single men). That would improve things ... a bit. Unfortunately, the main driver of this imbalance in the mate market is the decline in male mortality. Fewer young boys are dying in childhood, and fewer young men are dying in wars, traffic accidents, and workplace accidents.

        I wrote about this several years back:

        http://www.unz.com/pfrost/young-male-and-single/

        I had unknowingly echoed you below. The male mortality part is the uncomfortable elephant in the room that I did not mention. Indeed there are no easy answers.

        Is it possible for the fertility ratio to be technologically adjusted in favor of females? I dislike that for moral reasons, but Orientals tend not to have such scruples.

        • Replies: @L Woods
        A female-centric society would never approve such a thing.
        , @notanon
        immigration, especially illegal immigration is male skewed - that would be a good start.
      231. 216 says:
        @Rosie

        Lower and middle class women would only pick decent responsible men who would make great husbands and fathers. Picking the exciting bad boy would be far too risky.
         
        When men abandon their pregnant girlfriends, it's her fault for choosing the wrong guy! In no event ever are men to blame for anything.

        https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/

        You must live in ClownWorld-2, where superman is in the USSR.

        Male abandonment was far more common in the 19th century than today, we have something called child support orders and dna testing.

        Male behavior is being increasingly policed, and you think somehow that your second-wave feminism with a Nazi garnish is edgy.

        • Agree: Mark G.
        • LOL: Twinkie
        • Replies: @Anonymous
        She's a proponent of national socialism, but national socialism only works if the state institutionalizes patriarchy, which is anathema to her. Without state sanctioned patriarchy, national socialism only "works" as a police state and slave state, in which men are forced to serve the state and support a society of women with children by other men.
        , @Anonymoose
        The relationship between early feminism and victorian morality and the far right has always been interesting. I think Rosie is an interesting case of this intersection. What do you think?
        , @Feryl
        "Man-bashing" was a popular sport in the 70's and 80's (when Silent and Boomer women were trying to annihilate the stoic "settle for less" mentality that GI Gen women "conformed" to). Men were held to be 100% responsible for everything in society, presumably on the ground that in "most" societies men were thought to have had the upper hand in most respects. Ergo, women never had any power, and therefore could not be blamed for anything. A lot of this seems to stem from increasingly ambitious Silent and Boomer women trying to narcissistically gain more of an ego and status boost by criticizing past and future generations of combatants (and also criticizing older generations of women for setting a "bad example" by deferring to old-fashioned tradition too much).

        There's critique motivated by genuine moral disgust, and then there's critique based on envy. Silent and Boomer women don't have moral qualms with any generation of men, rather, they sullenly resented the idea that at any time period, men were more entitled to power and respect then the women. Money, status, power.....Far too many Silent and Boomer women were willing wreck society, divide it up, by pursuing ego boosting status points and totems. And if you could do so by bad-mouthing men for "unfairly" pursuing these things while society supposedly didn't do enough to allow women the same opportunity, so be it.

        Of course, Silent and Boomer women created a massive industry derived from unprecedented measures designed to hold men accountable ("make amends, deny historical privilege") for their supposed mistakes. It's never been harder for men to escape the responsibility of child support and care; a big reason women used to be encouraged to be "choosy" about their partner was they had to be sure he'd stick around. Now, women can get knocked up by any loser, and even if the women keeps the man physically out of her life for no good reason, he still has to pay child support. Not all cases of "absent fathers" are caused by the guy being a scoundrel who wanders away from the woman. Sometimes it's the woman who kicks him away. And why not, when the gov. enforced child support/alimony racket is the greatest welfare program ever designed, and it benefits the woman so much!
        , @Rosie

        Male abandonment was far more common in the 19th century than today, we have something called child support orders and dna testing.
         
        And numerous manospherians are advocating for the abolition of child support orders, on the grounds that such orders constitute some sort of bailout of irresponsible mothers. Are you not paying attention?
      232. 216 says:
        @Anonymous
        You're a proponent of feminism and egalitarianism between the sexes. Porn serves as an opiate that represses male energy to a certain extent and inhibits potential social disruption and upheaval caused by males. How do you square your feminism and egalitarianism with your opposition to porn, which acts as a tool to suppress men? If men aren't suppressed through opiates like porn, they are going to effect social change towards either general disruption and chaos or more patriarchal societies, neither of which bodes well for feminism and egalitarianism.

        Read Rollo Tomassi on “The Feminine Imperative”

        Also read Dalrock blog

        It is a staple of tradcon thinking that men turn to pron out of laziness, or “Sloth” rather than “Lust”. In the same token, there is no accusation of female “Wrath” or “Greed” or particularly “Gluttony”.

        The “Envy” angle on male pron consumption is under-explored. Feminists are wary of anything that questions “sex-positive” and tradcons are wary of this being extended to female hypergamy. TRP is nominally anti-porn, but won’t question the Envy angle lest for fear of embarrassment for advocating far too high of standards in looks.

        So if you take away pron, men will behave like obedient 1950s White Suburban Beta Males, while having far less authority than they did in the 1950s. For all we know, there’s a Japanese counterpart where some Shinto priestess is complaining about men not being salarymen because of anime.

      233. @Rosie

        Women are going to be in big trouble when sexbots really start coming onto the scene.
         
        Only if you make some very unflattering assumptions about men's nature, which may well be warranted, judging from this comment thread.

        Sexbots for women already exist. Amazon is the largest retailer.

        Since you want pron banned at risk of destabilization, we shall also take away these “marital aids”.

        • Replies: @Anonymoose
        *porn
        , @Rosie

        Since you want pron banned at risk of destabilization, we shall also take away these “marital aids”.
         
        Fine with me.
        , @MikeatMikedotMike
        If you ban vibrators then you're gonna see carpel tunnel insurance claims skyrocket!
      234. @Ragno
        And yet the stratum of society likeliest to hurl "incel" as an epithet all look like this

        https://66.media.tumblr.com/6f0034ea4f0a9ff49877ed4f849c2328/tumblr_p24xysu6oE1s8xhw7o3_500.jpg

        unless they more closely resemble

        https://i.postimg.cc/tRsP3d1z/1527084296218.jpg

        Ipso fatso.

        Its a manosphere heresy, but so-called “Beta game” does work, it just costs you a piece of yourself.

        • Replies: @L Woods
        Yes, I belatedly discovered this myself. You can expect to be cheated on and generally treated as a doormat, but it does ‘work’ after a fashion. That piece of yourself, of course, is your self-respect.
      235. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
        @Rosie

        Lower and middle class women would only pick decent responsible men who would make great husbands and fathers. Picking the exciting bad boy would be far too risky.
         
        When men abandon their pregnant girlfriends, it's her fault for choosing the wrong guy! In no event ever are men to blame for anything.

        Generally, responsible provider type men don’t abandon their pregnant girlfriends. In fact, they typically don’t get them pregnant in the first place before marriage. It’s irresponsible types that do, and they’re often on the hook for child support payments and thus are “blamed” and held responsible. It’s just that even though they’re on the hook, they simply don’t work or earn enough, and the rest of society and other men are taxed to support the single mother and her spawn by this man. Unless she was raped, it is her fault, but she’s not held responsible but is in fact rewarded for her choices.

        You’re basically an apologist for a black style social structure, which is strange since only the lowest tier of underclass whites behaves that way.

        • Agree: Achmed E. Newman
        • Replies: @notanon

        Generally, responsible provider type men don’t abandon their pregnant girlfriends. ...snip... You’re basically an apologist for a black style social structure
         
        more accurately the problem is trying to square the circle between two populations with two very distinct reproductive models.

        made more difficult by SJWs (and feminists) blaming one group of men for the dysfunction of another group cos teh racisms.
      236. 216 says:
        @L Woods
        Yeah, my tinder feed is filled with them right now (demanding, naturally, “something serious”). I see them parading around red state Virginia every day. But don’t worry: I’m sure the productive whites they grew up beside will be lucky enough to have the shot to put a ring on one after she’s hit the wall and has a couple of baby quantavii in tow.

        Thanks for fattening the pockets of media macher Barry Diller.

        Getting men to accept open polyandry is a major social engineering effort.

        I’ve speculated that many incel in their 20s will find superior access in their 30s, when the single mothers become more desperate. At most this option allows 1-2 TFR/male after accounting for the ??? TFR of the previous partner. And many women will say “have and dont want any more”.

      237. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
        @216
        https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/

        You must live in ClownWorld-2, where superman is in the USSR.

        Male abandonment was far more common in the 19th century than today, we have something called child support orders and dna testing.

        Male behavior is being increasingly policed, and you think somehow that your second-wave feminism with a Nazi garnish is edgy.

        She’s a proponent of national socialism, but national socialism only works if the state institutionalizes patriarchy, which is anathema to her. Without state sanctioned patriarchy, national socialism only “works” as a police state and slave state, in which men are forced to serve the state and support a society of women with children by other men.

        • Replies: @notanon

        national socialism only works if the state institutionalizes patriarchy
         
        "tradition" is adaptive cultural behaviors which evolved over time through trial and error.

        traditional patriarchy was an adaptation to very high child mortality (which is why women fully colluded in traditional patriarchy as it was the only way to successfully pass on their genes).

        then child mortality dropped (in Anglo countries first) and the culture hasn't adapted yet.

        some form of patriarchy (defined as men having a stake in the success of their society) is necessary but given the lower child mortality the optimal form won't be the same as the traditional one.
      238. @L Woods
        This is widely assumed, but I just don't see in every day life that women are gravitating towards middle class providers (at least while they're still in their prime reproductive years). Not a week goes by in my Virginia exurb where I don't see an attractive teenaged/early twenties girl with an aspiring rapper or ethnically ambiguous chad in tow.

        The rise in inter-racial relationships is heavily caused by the fact that the generation born since about 1990 is much less white than older generations. In other words, today’s white youth have a far greater pool of non-white mates to choose from. States like Minnesota were 90% white (or more) before the 1990’s. Supposing a white woman considered dating outside her race, there wasn’t a whole lot to choose from.

        It varies a lot from one state to another; in terms of demographics. There are now states where there are fewer blacks than there used to be as % of the state’s pop. (mostly in the Western states), but more Mexicans.

      239. @Audacious Epigone
        Nothing happens to any man that he is not fitted by nature to bear.

        (I always find it good to hear from Marcus Aurelius, too. Hope you don't mind.)

        Spell it as MARCVS AVRELIVS

        • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
        But I like my soft Cs!
      240. @216
        Sexbots for women already exist. Amazon is the largest retailer.

        Since you want pron banned at risk of destabilization, we shall also take away these "marital aids".

        *porn

        • Replies: @216
        prOn
      241. @Ragno
        And yet the stratum of society likeliest to hurl "incel" as an epithet all look like this

        https://66.media.tumblr.com/6f0034ea4f0a9ff49877ed4f849c2328/tumblr_p24xysu6oE1s8xhw7o3_500.jpg

        unless they more closely resemble

        https://i.postimg.cc/tRsP3d1z/1527084296218.jpg

        Ipso fatso.

        God they all look the same and they look so god damn punchable. Just looking at them makes me want to punch their teeth out.

      242. @216
        https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/

        You must live in ClownWorld-2, where superman is in the USSR.

        Male abandonment was far more common in the 19th century than today, we have something called child support orders and dna testing.

        Male behavior is being increasingly policed, and you think somehow that your second-wave feminism with a Nazi garnish is edgy.

        The relationship between early feminism and victorian morality and the far right has always been interesting. I think Rosie is an interesting case of this intersection. What do you think?

        • Replies: @216
        Yes, I think there is a link.

        As a speculative "future history", I've postulated the rise of a "conservative feminism" in the 2020s, as Anglo center-right parties seek to counteract the generational eclipse by winning back white women voters. I do not view this as a positive thing.

        Marriage will be increasingly delayed among credentialed white millennials, and some women are going to hit 40 and be unlikely to marry. We might even come to speak of them as "alpha widows" in a political context, rather than a manosphere context.

        More erudite folks have commented on fourth wave feminism being "Neo-Victorian", I might be the first to unironically agree with them. I actually think that MeToo is a good thing, because it deglamorizes Hollywood, and has a minor, but substantive effect on the behavior of elite men. When Ezra Klein promoted the draconian YMY policy with "cold spike of fear", I thought it was a good thing. Imo, any restraints on sexuality tilt the market back in favor of beta males.

        Its obvious that Rosie is combative with the overwhelmingly male audience, but I try to be sympathetic to her position. If you look at content, we are generally in agreement more often than with the secular commenters. Particularly wrt to economic policy and the need to police male thirst.
      243. @Audacious Epigone
        National socialist? Really, must you?

        How about a populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people? Or just a government that does?

        What’s wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.

        • Replies: @Twinkie

        What’s wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.
         
        That's called "populism" as AE wrote.

        Rosie is serious about her National Socialism (note the capital letters indicating a proper noun). She thinks the country is messed up, because she has to work while allegedly taking care of the kids and the house without getting much help from her husband and because she doesn't have a maid. And she thinks getting rid of nonwhites and forcing white men to marry white women they have sex with (while women are allowed to sleep around) is going to solve her problems. She also refers to people with money are "filthy rich" - I guess that makes her virtuously poor.

        I always thought she might improve her life if she'd spend more time going over homework with her kids and making her husband a sandwich instead of shouting expletives at people with whom she disagree on Unz. But I am not her life coach.
        , @Rosie

        What’s wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.
         
        Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Thank you.
        , @iffen
        What’s wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.

        It's a package deal. You can't break up the set.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Besides the historical baggage that makes the phrase unsalvageable, the "socialism" part!
      244. @216
        https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/

        You must live in ClownWorld-2, where superman is in the USSR.

        Male abandonment was far more common in the 19th century than today, we have something called child support orders and dna testing.

        Male behavior is being increasingly policed, and you think somehow that your second-wave feminism with a Nazi garnish is edgy.

        “Man-bashing” was a popular sport in the 70’s and 80’s (when Silent and Boomer women were trying to annihilate the stoic “settle for less” mentality that GI Gen women “conformed” to). Men were held to be 100% responsible for everything in society, presumably on the ground that in “most” societies men were thought to have had the upper hand in most respects. Ergo, women never had any power, and therefore could not be blamed for anything. A lot of this seems to stem from increasingly ambitious Silent and Boomer women trying to narcissistically gain more of an ego and status boost by criticizing past and future generations of combatants (and also criticizing older generations of women for setting a “bad example” by deferring to old-fashioned tradition too much).

        There’s critique motivated by genuine moral disgust, and then there’s critique based on envy. Silent and Boomer women don’t have moral qualms with any generation of men, rather, they sullenly resented the idea that at any time period, men were more entitled to power and respect then the women. Money, status, power…..Far too many Silent and Boomer women were willing wreck society, divide it up, by pursuing ego boosting status points and totems. And if you could do so by bad-mouthing men for “unfairly” pursuing these things while society supposedly didn’t do enough to allow women the same opportunity, so be it.

        Of course, Silent and Boomer women created a massive industry derived from unprecedented measures designed to hold men accountable (“make amends, deny historical privilege”) for their supposed mistakes. It’s never been harder for men to escape the responsibility of child support and care; a big reason women used to be encouraged to be “choosy” about their partner was they had to be sure he’d stick around. Now, women can get knocked up by any loser, and even if the women keeps the man physically out of her life for no good reason, he still has to pay child support. Not all cases of “absent fathers” are caused by the guy being a scoundrel who wanders away from the woman. Sometimes it’s the woman who kicks him away. And why not, when the gov. enforced child support/alimony racket is the greatest welfare program ever designed, and it benefits the woman so much!

        • Replies: @216
        Have there been longitudinal studies on the impact of child support on remarriage and fertility?
        , @216
        I think their is a root cause in the anger of credentialed Millennial women, rooted in their lack of a husband. Partially this anger also crosses over to demands that their husband/boyfriend needs to either propose/earn more money to provide the bourgeois lifestyle promised to university graduates.

        These women tend not to "marry down" to pursue better-earning blue collar men that lack credentials. It may become a cottage industry one day to match these women up with China/India surplus men.

        There's a reason this show is chick crack.


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_Day_Fiancé
      245. @AaronB
        Right, Western Civ has chosen to die. There is no saving it. We can only flee the sinking ship. And I have.

        But it's death is still an interesting phenomenon that I do not fully understand.

        From what I can make out, any civilization that fully adopts Greek rationalism has a short life. That much is clear, but it does not go deep enough.

        Materialism may be true or false, but I can't really understand emotional allegiance to it. It seems like the sort of thing one might accept so long as it works, but not the kind of thing one would love and cling to with passion even when it appears to no longer work.

        And as you note, its quite easy to question first assumptions when it comes to materialism - its actually been repeatedly proven to be illogical by the best minds, and even science!

        Yet clearly materialism has precisely an emotional appeal for them - not a logical appeal. They are not martyrs for the truth. They love materialism. It does something extremely important for them. But what? They are willing to die rather than give it up.

        I don't feel comfortable merely saying they are insane and writing them off.

        Reading Bruce Charltons blog has given me some clues - he's one of the few Westerners who realizes something is wrong and made a genuine attempt to return to religion. But he found that he couldn't do it. Instead, he ended up inventing his own religion, and the centerpiece of his invented religion is ego and pride, and a kind of smuggled in materialism, that gets more narcissistic and bizarre by the day.

        He found he could not submit to a higher Power, could not surrender his pride.

        Is that what materialism does for them?

        Lately, I am experimenting with simple Faith - no philosophy, no explanation. It goes so completely against modern ways of thinking! Yet it is an ancient virtue, an old "mode of being" that we have lost the habit for.

        St Augustine says we are not primarily thinking beings, but loving and feeling beings.

        I am an odd Jew, quoting St Augustine :) Yet I am discovering that a lot of Judaism has been elaborated in interaction with Christian and Sufi thinkers.

        Jews are supposed to be very intellectual, but I think Judaism excels most in the poetic and Faith based aspects of religion - the Talmud is intricate, but not more so than St Thomas Aquinas. But the Psalms are unparalleled.

        any civilization that fully adopts Greek rationalism has a short life

        One of the reasons why I’m glad our Persian polymaths chewed on Greek philosophy for a bit, swallowed what they liked and spit out the rest.

        Yet clearly materialism has precisely an emotional appeal for them – not a logical appeal.

        That’s a good point.

        he ended up inventing his own religion, and the centerpiece of his invented religion is ego and pride

        That’s usually the way it goes – everyone serves some master…
        “Have you seen the one who has chosen his own desires as his lord?…” (45:23)

        Lately, I am experimenting with simple Faith – no philosophy, no explanation.

        St Augustine says we are not primarily thinking beings, but loving and feeling beings.

        After years of searching and pondering, Imam Ghazali (ra) had come to the conclusion that one’s faith is not firm simply as an intellectual endeavor. His conclusion was that the Sufis are the ones that truly had the strongest connection with the Divine, had truly tasted the fruits of faith and it was beyond mental exercises.

        in interaction with Christian and Sufi thinkers

        This is the way of the human enterprise and market of ideas. Few can claim to have not gleaned wisdom and knowledge from other cultures.

        the Psalms are unparalleled

        Even in the English rendition, they are quite poetic. The Qur’an mentions that God commanded nature to join him in his praises:
        “We bestowed upon David great favor. We said, ‘O mountains and birds! Echo him in celebrating Our praise. And We softened iron for him.” (34:10)

        Must have been something to witness in real life, eh?

        I was wondering, in the original Hebrew, is it melodic and rhythmic? And do people render it in song or melody? I recently came across a very nice rendition of a chapter of the Qur’an that you might enjoy (under the MORE tag).

        Peace.

        [MORE]

        • Replies: @AaronB
        The Psalms are indeed rhythmic and melodic in Hebrew, and there are certain musical effects that are achieved by Hebrew grammar with its declensions that English doesn't have.

        Also, Hebrew in general is a far more concise and even laconic language than English, which gives the poetry a certain added power.

        The English translations are more baggy and wordy, but still manage to convey much of the power of the original.

        My Hebrew, however, is not good enough to read the Psalms without the aid of a translation - but I hope by the end of the year to do so.

        I appreciate the sentiment in that parable of the old woman very much!

        Thanks for that video - very beautiful and stirring music indeed! I have always heard that the Quaran was meant to be musically recited, and a big part of its spiritual impact is lost if one simply reads it as prose.

        I like that idea very much, because music and recitation can achieve spiritual effects that go well beyond the mere intellect.

        Sephardic Jews often musically recite the Jewish liturgy in ways that are reminiscent of Arabic music, which I appreciate.

        Ashkenazi Jews, particularly in America, are lagging in thus regard - one of the regrettable consequences of the exile in the ghettos of Europe - but are beginning to produce beautiful devotional music. And I believe the situation is getting better in Israel.

        That was a beautiful video.
        , @Audacious Epigone
        Sola fide.

        This tradition runs through some strains of Protestantism in the West.
      246. 216 says:
        @Anonymoose
        The relationship between early feminism and victorian morality and the far right has always been interesting. I think Rosie is an interesting case of this intersection. What do you think?

        Yes, I think there is a link.

        As a speculative “future history”, I’ve postulated the rise of a “conservative feminism” in the 2020s, as Anglo center-right parties seek to counteract the generational eclipse by winning back white women voters. I do not view this as a positive thing.

        Marriage will be increasingly delayed among credentialed white millennials, and some women are going to hit 40 and be unlikely to marry. We might even come to speak of them as “alpha widows” in a political context, rather than a manosphere context.

        More erudite folks have commented on fourth wave feminism being “Neo-Victorian”, I might be the first to unironically agree with them. I actually think that MeToo is a good thing, because it deglamorizes Hollywood, and has a minor, but substantive effect on the behavior of elite men. When Ezra Klein promoted the draconian YMY policy with “cold spike of fear”, I thought it was a good thing. Imo, any restraints on sexuality tilt the market back in favor of beta males.

        Its obvious that Rosie is combative with the overwhelmingly male audience, but I try to be sympathetic to her position. If you look at content, we are generally in agreement more often than with the secular commenters. Particularly wrt to economic policy and the need to police male thirst.

        • Replies: @Twinkie

        Its obvious that Rosie is combative with the overwhelmingly male audience, but I try to be sympathetic to her position.
         
        You haven't argued with her long enough.
      247. @Feryl
        "Man-bashing" was a popular sport in the 70's and 80's (when Silent and Boomer women were trying to annihilate the stoic "settle for less" mentality that GI Gen women "conformed" to). Men were held to be 100% responsible for everything in society, presumably on the ground that in "most" societies men were thought to have had the upper hand in most respects. Ergo, women never had any power, and therefore could not be blamed for anything. A lot of this seems to stem from increasingly ambitious Silent and Boomer women trying to narcissistically gain more of an ego and status boost by criticizing past and future generations of combatants (and also criticizing older generations of women for setting a "bad example" by deferring to old-fashioned tradition too much).

        There's critique motivated by genuine moral disgust, and then there's critique based on envy. Silent and Boomer women don't have moral qualms with any generation of men, rather, they sullenly resented the idea that at any time period, men were more entitled to power and respect then the women. Money, status, power.....Far too many Silent and Boomer women were willing wreck society, divide it up, by pursuing ego boosting status points and totems. And if you could do so by bad-mouthing men for "unfairly" pursuing these things while society supposedly didn't do enough to allow women the same opportunity, so be it.

        Of course, Silent and Boomer women created a massive industry derived from unprecedented measures designed to hold men accountable ("make amends, deny historical privilege") for their supposed mistakes. It's never been harder for men to escape the responsibility of child support and care; a big reason women used to be encouraged to be "choosy" about their partner was they had to be sure he'd stick around. Now, women can get knocked up by any loser, and even if the women keeps the man physically out of her life for no good reason, he still has to pay child support. Not all cases of "absent fathers" are caused by the guy being a scoundrel who wanders away from the woman. Sometimes it's the woman who kicks him away. And why not, when the gov. enforced child support/alimony racket is the greatest welfare program ever designed, and it benefits the woman so much!

        Have there been longitudinal studies on the impact of child support on remarriage and fertility?

        • Replies: @Feryl
        No idea. But one can assume that Millennials and Gen Z saw older generations of men, of families, go through so much grief over divorce, child support, alimony etc. that they are foregoing reproduction and perhaps sex altogether (it is very, very difficult for Boomers to understand why young adults are not having sex like coked up rabbits these days). X-ers had lots of sex in the 80's and early 90's, but I tend to think that Turchin's notion of the late 90's being the beginning of a new Gilded Age has so poisoned the social atmosphere that teens and young adults are frightened of the risks of intimacy and relationships*, to a degree that older generations just don't understand (young adults f***ed like crazy with casual partners in the 70's-early 90's, and GIs and Silents didn't have to wait long to have sex within the confines of marriage.

        *Girls fear being thought of as "settling" for a "loser", while guys are nervous that the chick will dump him/divorce him/abscond with the kid/stick him with child support/alimony payments. These are things that Boomers and X-ers also had to consider, but they were more willing to give their mates the benefit of the doubt in the New Deal era, and the early Neo-liberal era. Post-2000, people are terrified of back stabbers.
      248. 216 says:
        @Feryl
        "Man-bashing" was a popular sport in the 70's and 80's (when Silent and Boomer women were trying to annihilate the stoic "settle for less" mentality that GI Gen women "conformed" to). Men were held to be 100% responsible for everything in society, presumably on the ground that in "most" societies men were thought to have had the upper hand in most respects. Ergo, women never had any power, and therefore could not be blamed for anything. A lot of this seems to stem from increasingly ambitious Silent and Boomer women trying to narcissistically gain more of an ego and status boost by criticizing past and future generations of combatants (and also criticizing older generations of women for setting a "bad example" by deferring to old-fashioned tradition too much).

        There's critique motivated by genuine moral disgust, and then there's critique based on envy. Silent and Boomer women don't have moral qualms with any generation of men, rather, they sullenly resented the idea that at any time period, men were more entitled to power and respect then the women. Money, status, power.....Far too many Silent and Boomer women were willing wreck society, divide it up, by pursuing ego boosting status points and totems. And if you could do so by bad-mouthing men for "unfairly" pursuing these things while society supposedly didn't do enough to allow women the same opportunity, so be it.

        Of course, Silent and Boomer women created a massive industry derived from unprecedented measures designed to hold men accountable ("make amends, deny historical privilege") for their supposed mistakes. It's never been harder for men to escape the responsibility of child support and care; a big reason women used to be encouraged to be "choosy" about their partner was they had to be sure he'd stick around. Now, women can get knocked up by any loser, and even if the women keeps the man physically out of her life for no good reason, he still has to pay child support. Not all cases of "absent fathers" are caused by the guy being a scoundrel who wanders away from the woman. Sometimes it's the woman who kicks him away. And why not, when the gov. enforced child support/alimony racket is the greatest welfare program ever designed, and it benefits the woman so much!

        I think their is a root cause in the anger of credentialed Millennial women, rooted in their lack of a husband. Partially this anger also crosses over to demands that their husband/boyfriend needs to either propose/earn more money to provide the bourgeois lifestyle promised to university graduates.

        These women tend not to “marry down” to pursue better-earning blue collar men that lack credentials. It may become a cottage industry one day to match these women up with China/India surplus men.

        There’s a reason this show is chick crack.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_Day_Fiancé

        • Replies: @Twinkie

        These women tend not to “marry down” to pursue better-earning blue collar men that lack credentials. It may become a cottage industry one day to match these women up with China/India surplus men.
         
        Well, there is always Fundamentalist Mormonism - sisterhood of wives!
        , @Rosie

        These women tend not to “marry down” to pursue better-earning blue collar men that lack credentials. It may become a cottage industry one day to match these women up with China/India surplus men.
         
        There was a time when educational attainment was a fairly reliable proxy for women, but that is no longer true, and women are adjusting. You ought to be honest about that and give credit where credit is due.

        https://www.nationalreview.com/2017/11/men-are-increasingly-marrying-better-educated-women/
        , @Feryl
        Again, I don't think "anger" is the proper term. Confused, angst-ridden, depressed, neurotic....In some cases, but not generally angry (if you want to see youth anger, please do some research on the "Days of anger" late 1960's). Millennials and Gen Z feel alienated and annoyed by the pressure cooker society that Boomers and early Gen X evidently can't get enough of, which is why they are constantly complaining that younger generations "don't get" how to be happy and successful in life. It's the reverse of the 60's; back then, Silents and Boomers were getting uppity with their complaints that the GI Gen was too patrician, too stolid, and too cold; they wanted society to be transformed into something more vivacious. Well, this cultural transformation has created lots of chaos which Boomers (primarily, with some early X-ers along for the ride) either openly relish or act two-faced about (lamenting today's excess but not doing effectively anything to rein it in).

        Reforming society to reflect the regulation which younger generations want would entail asking older generations to STFU about socialism being the worst thing ever, and FDR being the worst president ever. I'm personally not holding my breath about older generation's giving up their BS anytime soon. The older righties still think that gubmint regulation is horrible (and they wonder why the borders are wide-open). The older lefties think that corporate leaders deserve more than an ounce of respect for the job they've done in the post-New Deal era(no, these crony capitalist assholes need lots of pressure applied to make them serve the community as effectively as they did in the 30's-70's).
      249. @Audacious Epigone
        National socialist? Really, must you?

        How about a populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people? Or just a government that does?

        National socialist? Really, must you?

        Yes, she must. Did you not realize that she sees just about everyone who disagrees with her as an enemy in need of re-education or exclusion/extermination?

        Was her non-ironic idea that cads should be beaten up my her male relatives not a clue?

        She wants a white Pakistan in which religion is replaced by white-ness (as she defines it of course).

      250. @Anonymoose
        What's wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.

        What’s wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.

        That’s called “populism” as AE wrote.

        Rosie is serious about her National Socialism (note the capital letters indicating a proper noun). She thinks the country is messed up, because she has to work while allegedly taking care of the kids and the house without getting much help from her husband and because she doesn’t have a maid. And she thinks getting rid of nonwhites and forcing white men to marry white women they have sex with (while women are allowed to sleep around) is going to solve her problems. She also refers to people with money are “filthy rich” – I guess that makes her virtuously poor.

        I always thought she might improve her life if she’d spend more time going over homework with her kids and making her husband a sandwich instead of shouting expletives at people with whom she disagree on Unz. But I am not her life coach.

        • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
        Either she really did put you on ignore, or she is about to have an aneurysm trying to restrain herself right now!
      251. @216
        Yes, I think there is a link.

        As a speculative "future history", I've postulated the rise of a "conservative feminism" in the 2020s, as Anglo center-right parties seek to counteract the generational eclipse by winning back white women voters. I do not view this as a positive thing.

        Marriage will be increasingly delayed among credentialed white millennials, and some women are going to hit 40 and be unlikely to marry. We might even come to speak of them as "alpha widows" in a political context, rather than a manosphere context.

        More erudite folks have commented on fourth wave feminism being "Neo-Victorian", I might be the first to unironically agree with them. I actually think that MeToo is a good thing, because it deglamorizes Hollywood, and has a minor, but substantive effect on the behavior of elite men. When Ezra Klein promoted the draconian YMY policy with "cold spike of fear", I thought it was a good thing. Imo, any restraints on sexuality tilt the market back in favor of beta males.

        Its obvious that Rosie is combative with the overwhelmingly male audience, but I try to be sympathetic to her position. If you look at content, we are generally in agreement more often than with the secular commenters. Particularly wrt to economic policy and the need to police male thirst.

        Its obvious that Rosie is combative with the overwhelmingly male audience, but I try to be sympathetic to her position.

        You haven’t argued with her long enough.

        • Replies: @216
        Rosie's platonic ideal is Red Ice Lana.

        The actual lived experience is probably something much different. Like that creepy woman that Mark Collet of the UK is with.

        ---

        You haven’t argued with her long enough.
         
        I back away before it gets too harsh.
      252. @216
        I think their is a root cause in the anger of credentialed Millennial women, rooted in their lack of a husband. Partially this anger also crosses over to demands that their husband/boyfriend needs to either propose/earn more money to provide the bourgeois lifestyle promised to university graduates.

        These women tend not to "marry down" to pursue better-earning blue collar men that lack credentials. It may become a cottage industry one day to match these women up with China/India surplus men.

        There's a reason this show is chick crack.


        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/90_Day_Fiancé

        These women tend not to “marry down” to pursue better-earning blue collar men that lack credentials. It may become a cottage industry one day to match these women up with China/India surplus men.

        Well, there is always Fundamentalist Mormonism – sisterhood of wives!

      253. @Twinkie

        Its obvious that Rosie is combative with the overwhelmingly male audience, but I try to be sympathetic to her position.
         
        You haven't argued with her long enough.

        Rosie’s platonic ideal is Red Ice Lana.

        The actual lived experience is probably something much different. Like that creepy woman that Mark Collet of the UK is with.

        You haven’t argued with her long enough.

        I back away before it gets too harsh.

        • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
        • Replies: @Rosie

        Rosie’s platonic ideal is Red Ice Lana.
         
        No. I don't identify with the homecoming queen type at all. Wife With A Purpose is more like it.
      254. @Audacious Epigone
        Success, dominance, self-confidence--isn't it hyperbolic to describe these things as "the worst in men"?

        Even phrased that euphemistically, given what those qualities actually entail, no, not really.

      255. @216
        I had unknowingly echoed you below. The male mortality part is the uncomfortable elephant in the room that I did not mention. Indeed there are no easy answers.

        Is it possible for the fertility ratio to be technologically adjusted in favor of females? I dislike that for moral reasons, but Orientals tend not to have such scruples.

        A female-centric society would never approve such a thing.

      256. There are roughly 1.08 males born for every female. That does not even come close to explaining what we’re seeing here.

        The demographic reversal has been much greater than 8% (and an 8% change is not trivial). Until the late 1970s, women actually outnumbered men in adult age groups. Male mortality did not simply erase the male advantage at birth. It actually reversed it. Keep in mind that this was not just a legacy of WWII deaths. The higher male mortality was driven by a wide range of causes.

        The period from the mid-1960s to the late 1970s was one in which there was a shortage of males at median age of first marriage. From the perspective of sexual selection pressures, this period was one of diminished levels of competition among males for qualities sought by females because there was an abundant supply of females. Similarly, females were less able to be “choosy” because there was a shortage of males.

        Beginning in the late 1970s and early 1980s, sex ratios tipped over from male scarcity to parity and then to a relative excess of males. In 1991, plurality of males is clear in the age combinations when first marriage normatively occurs, and this situation will persist through the end of the century. (Pedersen, 1991)

        Pedersen, F.A. (1991). Secular trends in human sex ratios: Their influence on individual and family behavior, Human Nature, 2, 271-291.

        Is it possible for the fertility ratio to be technologically adjusted in favor of females?

        Possible, yes. But most people will prefer the “moral” solution of starting another war.

        Short of locking up even more young black men, creating an 84th visa category for young, single Asian women, and hand it out like candy, it looks like you’re right.

        There’s always polyandry. In fact, I know men who are in polyandrous situations. It’s degrading, and they don’t like it, but what’s the alternative? I’d hate to be a single man today.

        • Replies: @Feryl
        I remember John Xenakis (among others) researching the link between resource scarcity and conflict. The idea is that a "rising" period of peace and prosperity can only be sustained for a certain period of time, as it leads to rising population levels, rising demand for food, etc. Eventually cracks in the facade of normality and stability appear, as competition increases.

        The GI Gen and Silent Gen (those born from roughly 1900-1940) benefited a lot from the post-War era, with plentiful and cheap land, housing, etc. The ease of making a living and supporting oneself meant that men could easily find women willing to settle down. The Boomer generation born in the 40's and 50's also benefited from this state of affairs, although for cultural (but not really economic) reasons many of them chose to delay marriage and child-bearing in the 60's and 70's. Once you get to the 80's, competition for jobs/property/mates begins to rise; some of this is due to the excess of the Boomers, but it also reflected the reality that the sheer size of the Boomer generation was going to reduce job opportunities while also pushing up demand for many things, thereby raising values and pushing many men out of the upper/middle class, reducing their appeal to women. Gen X-ers in the 90's faced a grim situation, as legions of Silents and Boomers had taken the better jobs (while the lesser jobs were beginning to pay less; entry level pay declined in the 80's and has been falling ever since) and refused to give them up. By the mid-90's, Gen X had become the first generation to delay marriage and child-bearing due to economic conditions, rather than due to personal taste.

        Each passing decade has less to offer, and each passing generation is worse off for it. Gis, Silents, and Boomers had a lot of breaks, and took them for granted, and often did nothing but tell their X-er and Millennial kids that they needed to "work hard" and get a good education in order to get somewhere (glibly avoiding the reality that successive generations were being asked to do more and more in return for less and less). There are so many disgruntled males under the age of 45, it's creating the possibility of the oubreak of great hostilities, which could lead to wars/expulsions/genocides; after enough casualties are sustained, that would create the conditions for reduced competition for resources. Then we could have another "high" period of peace and easy living.
      257. @216
        Its a manosphere heresy, but so-called "Beta game" does work, it just costs you a piece of yourself.

        Yes, I belatedly discovered this myself. You can expect to be cheated on and generally treated as a doormat, but it does ‘work’ after a fashion. That piece of yourself, of course, is your self-respect.

      258. @Dumbo
        There are many reasons why people won't have sex. I think there were always people who for some reason or other were left out of the sexual market. However, with feminism and female independence this became a much worse issue. As someone else said here, now that women have financial independence and even support from the State if they are single moms, they have mo reason to settle for lower-status, or less sexually attractive men.

        It was always thus, 80% of women go for 20% of men, leaving quite a few lower status men out of the game. But divorce, feminism, porn, and other malaises of modernity have worsened the problem.

        Now it is true that there are some "incels" who are really just really very unattractive for women, they don't really help their own case the way they act, dress, or talk, and there's not much that can be done for them, except perhaps some kind of coaching or perhaps returning to arranged marriages.

        I've read an article about some Japanese dude who "married" a cartoon character because he couldn't get the attention of any woman. And I've read that in Japan now 1 out of 4 men will never have sex (or something to that effect).

        But in Japan until the fifties marriages arranged or semi-arranged by parents were the norm (just watch any Ozu movie), and it worked for them. So maybe they should go back to arranged marriages.

        As for the West, it is more difficult for this to happen, our treatment of women has always been more free, despite what women say about the "patriarchy". I've heard some say that a possible solution would be to artificially reduce the number of men, by selective abortion or other means (like in China, just the other way around) so that you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.

        ” you have a society with 80% of women and 20% of men, this would (probably) end the problem of incels once and for all. But it may cause many other issues.”

        Such a society would offer an irresistible target for male invaders, even today. Hell, I’d be tempted even at my age. And what resistance to invasion could such a society put up?

      259. @Anonymoose
        What's wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.

        What’s wrong with National Socialism? As in the literal sense of the word which I think Rosie means. Not the unironic Stormfront NSDAPist LARPING and cult personalities that go with it.

        Yes, that is exactly what I mean. Thank you.

      260. @216
        https://www.reddit.com/r/WhereAreAllTheGoodMen/

        You must live in ClownWorld-2, where superman is in the USSR.

        Male abandonment was far more common in the 19th century than today, we have something called child support orders and dna testing.

        Male behavior is being increasingly policed, and you think somehow that your second-wave feminism with a Nazi garnish is edgy.

        Male abandonment was far more common in the 19th century than today, we have something called child support orders and dna testing.

        And numerous manospherians are advocating for the abolition of child support orders, on the grounds that such orders constitute some sort of bailout of irresponsible mothers. Are you not paying attention?

        • Replies: @Talha

        advocating for the abolition of child support orders,
         
        I can actually see the wisdom and legal reasoning in this. If you watch that video I posted in #133, we have a situation in this country where a man cannot legally prevent his wife, girlfriend, etc. from aborting his child. It is completely her choice to bring the child into the world without any legal say on his part. If you see some of the comments in the twitter thread, there are other men who mention that their girlfriends or wives secretly aborted their child without consulting with them.

        If this is indeed the case, I see no reason to involve the legal system in forcing the man to pay child support for a child that he had no legal voice in preventing or requiring be brought into the world. If it is truly only her choice, then she should deal with all consequences (in a legal sense) of that choice. The man is simply a warm sperm donor and we do not require sperm donors to pay child support.

        Now, if we want to rethink things and give men some sort of legal standing in the determination of aborting babies, then I think the demand for child support has a good leg to stand on. Right now, the legal balance is way off the mark against men.

        Peace.
        , @Anonymous
        Well of course it's a bailout. How else would you characterize it?

        And where do you think Dontavious's child support payments and his baby momma's income ultimately come from? They come from taxpayers and government intervention in the market provide these people with nominal employment.
      261. @216
        Rosie's platonic ideal is Red Ice Lana.

        The actual lived experience is probably something much different. Like that creepy woman that Mark Collet of the UK is with.

        ---

        You haven’t argued with her long enough.
         
        I back away before it gets too harsh.

        Rosie’s platonic ideal is Red Ice Lana.

        No. I don’t identify with the homecoming queen type at all. Wife With A Purpose is more like it.

      262. @216
        Sexbots for women already exist. Amazon is the largest retailer.

        Since you want pron banned at risk of destabilization, we shall also take away these "marital aids".

        Since you want pron banned at risk of destabilization, we shall also take away these “marital aids”.

        Fine with me.

      263. @216
        Sexbots for women already exist. Amazon is the largest retailer.

        Since you want pron banned at risk of destabilization, we shall also take away these "marital aids".

        If you ban vibrators then you’re gonna see carpel tunnel insurance claims skyrocket!

        • LOL: Mr. Rational
        • Replies: @Rosie

        If you ban vibrators then you’re gonna see carpel tunnel insurance claims skyrocket
         
        I doubt it. There are plenty of serviceable substitutes in the produce aisle.
      264. @Audacious Epigone
        National socialist? Really, must you?

        How about a populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people? Or just a government that does?

        How about a populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people? Or just a government that does?

        A populist government that cares first and foremost about the wellbeing of the people (nationalist) is not much good unless it is also socialist. We are facing down an unemployment catastrophe that is going to require thinking outside the small-government box, however Achmed might feel about that.

        I’m tired of Jews telling me what words and phrases I can and can’t use. Observing their taboos only strengthens them. Soon, “populist” will be off limits, too.

        • Replies: @Twinkie

        socialist
         
        Rosie: “I want your money. I don’t have a maid.”
        , @Audacious Epigone
        I understand the sentiment, but it need not be a slippery slope. Just cut out Nazi references. My grandfather fought them and now some people want to call me a Nazi for simply believing the same things that my grandfather believed. Why walk into an ambush?