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Honghe Hani and Yi Autonomous Prefecture, 2020

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      Of course, borders are sexual, at least for men, for you’re about to enter a normally forbidden territory. This buildup, anxiety and euphoria is lessened if the border is a mere formality, or if you have a strong (and stiff enough) passport. For women, border crossers can promise adventure, for they may deliver you to another world, after entering yours.

      For two weeks, I’ve been hugging a border. I type this in Si Ma Cai, just four miles from China, though the trek there is not level, and there’s nothing on the other side but wooded mountains.

      Just last week, though, I was in Lao Cai, where each day I could stroll along the Red or Nanxi River and see what the Chinese were doing on their streets and balconies, or inside their windows. Along the bank of the Red River, a few men were fishing against a green backdrop of towering wild grass and bamboos. I fleetingly glimpsed two women walking their dogs.

      Most of the time, though, there was no life. Most stores were closed. Unoccupied hotel rooms had their curtains always drawn. At mid-morning, a four-lane avenue leading to a grand gate and steep steps, a magnificent vista, had but one motorbike moving.

      Normally bustling, Hekou and the Honghe Hani and Yi Autonomous Prefecture have become unnaturally void and silent, even as their multi-colored lights still dazzle at night. Thanks to the coronavirus, much of China is locked inside. Though seeing a Chinese in public is not quite like spotting Elvis or Big Foot, it is rare.

      I came to Lao Cai from Dien Bien Phu, on a minibus that took ten hours, with stops to pick up passengers and to eat lunch. There was a friendly Chinese who communicated with me via a translation app. About forty-years-old, he alternated between looking eager and subdued.

      Learning that I was Vietnamese, he asked, “Will you help me to find a wife?”

      “Sure, when we get to Lao Cai,” I laughed.

      “A beauty pageant winner?”

      “Yes, of course. There are many.”

      “A Vietnamese wife is too expensive,” he cranked up the humor. “Three hundred thousand dong [$13] for just half an hour!”

      Since a conversation of this nature could only go so far, we didn’t say much more. A few hours later, the Chinese turned his attention to an Argentinian man, sitting right in front of me.

      His opening, “I’m from China. I go back to China tomorrow. I’m only playing in Vietnam. Where are you from?”

      When the Argentinian said something nice about China, the Chinese surprisingly retorted, “Dictatorship!”

      Most people onboard were headed for trendy Sapa. In 1995, I saw its famous 1935 church still in ruins. It had been shelled by the Chinese during their 1979 invasion. A local told me people had fled in terror to the hills. In 2020, I opened the minivan window to better scan all the new, brightly-lit hotels, restaurants, cafes and bars.

      Lao Cai was completely destroyed during this barely remembered border war, and was abandoned for a dozen years. Both sides laid down thousands of mines.

      This remote region has long been fought over, however, for it’s a lucrative trade route between Yunnan and Vietnam. Opium shipped downriver while sea salt flowed upstream. Fattening on taxes, the Black Flag bandits were based in Lao Cai. Tai and Hmong Lords staked out territories.

      Trying desperately to retain their identity, there are ethnic groups here almost no one has heard of, such as the Kháng (down to 14,000 people), the La Chí (13,000), the Phù Lá (11,000) or the Pa Dí (just 2,000). Much larger groups, though, are also losing this battle, and yours, too, of course. Cultural castration is a worldwide pandemic. We’re all being unmanned.

      As the British rushed to reach Yunnan via Burma, the French got there first through Lao Cai, in 1886. In 1906, they linked it with Hanoi by a railroad that cost 12,000 Vietnamese and Chinese lives, plus 80 European ones.

      When the Englishman Archibald Little came to Lao Cai in 1911, this was what he saw:

      LAO-KAI presents the same contrast to Ho-k’ou, that the Model Settlement does to the Shanghai city; on crossing the railway bridge that now unites the two towns, one passes abruptly from filth and disorder into wide macadamised streets lined with shade trees; clean white bungalows, one and two-storied, a small bund with pontoon wharf—a miniature Point de Galle with the same tropical air and vegetation, but also a close, steamy atmosphere due to its situation in a narrow valley distant 265 miles from the sea. There are few or no Chinese in Lao-kai (it costs them about six shillings a head to enter French territory) and, in the siesta hour, in which we landed, there were apparently no inhabitants. The military are stationed on the right bank and have to cross the rushing river by ferry to come into Lao-kai; the piers of a high bridge, solid circular pillars of brick and stone, were erected some years ago, but the idea of completing the bridge seems to have been abandoned. The chief buildings are the offices of the administration, a spacious Custom-house with godowns attached, the offices of the “Messageries Fluviales,” the Post Office and the Hotel Fleury, where we put up, also a roomy military “cercle,” pleasantly situated on a bluff overlooking the river, and a bandstand in the central “Square.” Towards evening, after an enjoyable dejeuner at the hotel, we sat on the verandah listening to a military band, we having happily arrived on band-day, and felt that in crossing the Nam-ti we had re-entered civilisation; but we pitied the folk whose duties relegate them to this depressing spot, with little to occupy them, no sports, no society, nowhere to go; hemmed in as they are by pathless jungle.

      A century later, Hekou has surpassed Lao Cai in tall buildings, array of shops and modernity, for China is no longer mired in “filth and disorder.” Things can reverse fast.

      Just before we entered Lao Cai, the Chinese showed me his phone, “Can we stay together at the hotel?”

      ORDER IT NOW

      I didn’t exactly welcome the idea, but thought that perhaps the man was low on cash, and since it was only for one night, maybe I could deal with it. The best solution was to find a place cheap enough so we could each have our own room.

      “We’ll find something in Lao Cai,” I answered.

      Just like at Dien Bien Phu and Sapa, there was nothing in Lao Cai I could recognize. We got out in the darkness and cold. With excitement and relief, the Chinese pointed to a guest house right over the minibus company’s office, but after one look at its barely lit stairs, I shook my head, then led him down the street.

      Sure enough, there were guest house signs nearby. Walking into the first one, I found out that it only cost $7.30 a night, so fine, we were set, but after the Chinese pulled out his passport, the owner said no.

      “But he’s been in Vietnam for a whole month, brother,” I protested. “He’s only in Lao Cai to go back to China, tomorrow.”

      “No, no Chinese, my kids are afraid.”

      Chuckling incredulously, I could say nothing more to persuade him. Since I wasn’t about to abandon my Chinese friend, I asked the owner hypothetically, “So can I stay here? I’m Vietnamese.”

      Grimly shaking his head, the man couldn’t wait to get rid of us diseased monsters. Again, we marched into the darkness and cold. “Don’t worry,” I said, “we’ll find something,” and we did, just two doors away.

      At Quyen Linh Guest House, a room without a private toilet cost just $4.29, so that’s that, for that’s all they had, and it was cheap enough that neither one of us had to hear the other snore, fart or dreamingly babble through the night.

      For that price, I didn’t expect much, but my bed didn’t smell funky or sour, and though voices, music or footsteps did occasionally penetrate my thin walls and seemingly nonexistent door, I slept fine.

      On a dingy wall, there were even two pencil drawn hearts, enclosing heartbroken poems. The first one began, “A small room during a long, desolate night / Suddenly my heart saddens and longs for him / The word wealth sounds so romantic / Squashes my life with its poor girl’s fate.” Since age deepens poverty, the poor girl is probably even more destitute, or maybe she’s a princess, intertwined with some toad.

      The next morning, I walked several miles to scope out the new Lao Cai, and before noon, had moved into a better situated and cheerier hotel, though still cheap. I’d stay there for ten days. I wanted to be as close to the border as possible.

      Before leaving Quyen Linh, I did chat with its owner to learn that he was a native, and hadn’t just lived through the Chinese invasion, but fought against it, as a militiaman.

      “How much training did you get?”

      “Almost none.”

      “So how did you know what to do?!”

      “You know, brother, us Vietnamese hear so many war stories growing up, we became accustomed to it as children.”

      Although the Lao Cai region is the second poorest in Vietnam, the city itself has done extremely well in the last two decades, as a key gateway to trade with China, and with a daily influx of Chinese tourists. With the eruption of the coronavirus and the closing of the border on January 29th, all this commerce suddenly stopped, so I found myself in a stunned and prostrated city, though not nearly as comatose as what’s across two thin rivers.

      Many Lao Cai businesses clearly target Chinese. Sichuan dry hot pots are widely available, and at Dang Chau Quan, the menu lists prices only in yuans.

      Sign at a burger joint, “CORONAVIRUS / STORE TEMPORARILY CLOSED.” At a health and beauty store, “TO FIGHT AGAINST THE CORONAVIRUS / WE ASK THAT YOU ALLOW US TO WEAR MEDICAL MASKS / WHEN CONDUCTING BUSINESS.” At a Chinese restaurant, “BECAUSE OF THE VIRUS / THE RESTAURANT WILL BE CLOSED TEMPORARILY /

      WE WILL ANNOUNCE LATER WHEN IT WILL REOPEN.”

      I entered the café at the upscale Muong Thanh Hotel, to find it completely empty, and there was nothing in the pastry case.

      “There are no pastries,” I said to the cashier. “Will there be some later?”

      “There won’t be any all day,” she answered.

      Normally, the short bridge between Lao Cai and Hekou is streaming with trucks, private cars, tourists and porters, pushing or pulling ridiculously large loads on primitive wheels. What I saw earlier this month, though, was a nearly always empty crossing. Once, there was a forlorn tourist walking home, and another time, a father and his small daughter entering uncertainty, if not fear, after their too brief vacation.

      I saw two vans disgorge Chinese tourists, all looking grim and wearing medical masks. Hardly talking, they wearily walked towards the grand exit gate. Pulling stylish luggage, they were all cheerfully dressed, however, in that casual and adolescent fashion derived from Gap, Old Navy and American Apparel. One pony tailed girl had “LOVE AND COURAGE” on the back of her hoodie.

      Surveying the border, I ran into a soldier one afternoon, but he wasn’t in uniform.

      “Why are you taking so many pictures, uncle?”

      “Ah, just curious! It looks so dead over there.”

      Astride his motorbike, he still eyed me suspiciously, “You shouldn’t take so many photos at the border of a friendly country.”

      He actually said that. Putting my camera away, I opined, “If they run over here, we’ll have a serious problem.”

      “But they can’t. We have our patrols.”

      “But the border is so long. If this virus gets worse, many of them will decide to flee over here!”

      “We’ll catch them.”

      I have my doubts, for smuggling has always been a huge problem along this border. There are many sections where you can just wade or even walk across.

      ORDER IT NOW

      In Lao Cai, I sometimes hired a motorbike taxi guy. Born in 1962, he had had three wives. The first, he left. The second died while pregnant when a car hit their motorbike. The third left him almost a year ago, with their three-year-old daughter. Missing the child terribly, he showed me many photos of her exuberant self, and once almost teared up. His dark face quivered.

      “I’m the nicest guy,” he professed, then later admitted he had been in several jails, where he managed to beat up the meanest “bearheads” from just about every province in the Red River Delta.

      “Why were you in jail?”

      “Ah, it’s nothing. Just making a living.”

      The second wife is most relevant to this piece. Running a smuggling operation, she hired many porters, and got pregnant by one of them. Seeing her belly bulge, the married lover ran away, only to return four years later. Jumping into her bed again, he also had a juicy proposal. Instead of goods, why not smuggle gullible women, for a lot more cash? Many Chinese men were desperate for a wife.

      She agreed, and got rather loaded, until a tricked bride escaped back to Vietnam, which landed our smuggler in prison for seven elongated years. Out, broke and chastened, she somehow found a new man, so there’s a second chance, after all, until that mass of steel smashed into her.

      On the minibus from Lao Cai to Si Ma Cai, a woman told me, “Many women from this area got tricked into going to China. Some, we haven’t heard from in twenty years, so we don’t even know if they’re dead or alive.”

      Some, she’s still in touch with, “They’re married, with children. We talk through Zalo or Snapchat. They tell me everyone stays inside now, with only one person leaving the house to buy grocery when absolutely necessary.”

      An emblematic event from this novel crisis is the massive banquet held by Wuhan on January 18th, for they did this knowing full well 62 Wuhanese had already been infected. Catering to 40 thousand families, organizers wanted to break the world record for most dishes served. In retrospect, this diseased feast was a celebratory funeral for those who would soon die.

      Two months into this crisis, the death toll has breached 2,000, with many more to come, almost certainly. This outbreak has triggered some of the darkest speculations, moreover, and even wishes.

      Many believe it has been bioengineered, and released into China by the United States. This contention is seemingly supported by the fact that only Orientals, with nearly all of them Chinese, have been killed so far, but if China’s industrial paralysis continues, the American economy will also collapse, so why would Washington trigger this? Already, the disruption to the global supply chain is causing major turmoil.

      Others agree that it is bioengineered, yet released by China itself, accidentally. If this is true, why did China invent a bioweapon that’s aimed at its own people primarily?

      Some are cheered by the prospect this coronavirus will kill millions, if not billions, of Orientals. The wish to see an entire group disappear can’t be that uncommon. This elation will be snuffed out if non-Orientals start to die from the coronavirus.

      A universal culling yields another schadenfreude. If life is a competition of all against all, a battle royale, then the last man standing wins. Vain, each loser enjoys seeing others fall, for each death witnessed seemingly adds to his longevity. Laughing, he is not dead.

      It is dark now. There are voices outside my window. Earlier, I could hear cheerful bells from the water buffaloes, feeding across the road. In Si Ma Cai, these lumbering beasts shit even on sidewalks, so you just get used to it.

      Here, the mountainous landscape is indeed spectacular, but it has been much deformed by man. That’s always the first sign of civilization, then come priests, slaves, temples, a few thoughtful paintings, lots of garbage, fake everything then, finally, some global gargle to allow this exhausted planet to finally heal.

      Soon, perhaps all this will die away, then I can finally go to China, to see what’s left of China, or maybe there won’t be any me left, to go to any China. At least I’ve seen China, so to speak, at least much more of it than 14 million congenitally blind Chinese!

      Tall grass will grow from our already cracked sidewalks. Roaming free, the water buffaloes will tinkle our bells.

      Linh Dinh’s latest book is Postcards from the End of America. He maintains a regularly updated photo blog.

       
      • Category: Culture/Society • Tags: China, Vietnam 
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      1. Smith says:

        Shameful to say, even I who have visited many countries, have not spent much time to tour inside Vietnam, especially the North.

        I hope this year I can spend sometimes to visit the North, especially in Lao Cai, Thai Nguyen and such.

        I hope our government protects our border better so that people aren’t tricked into working in China as slaves.

      2. Tusk says:

        Be careful revealing that even other asians are turning the Chinese away, or else China might ramp up their racism campaign against Vietnam for hurting the feelings of the Chinese people.

        • Troll: d dan
        • Replies: @Hong Kong Hibernian
      3. supertjx says:

        Wow.. that first paragraph. Sublime!

        • Agree: Tom Welsh
      4. anon[565] • Disclaimer says:

        Good stuff LD.

      5. Smith says:

        d dan is here to give the free Troll tag for everyone.

        The class waves and says hello to d!

        • Agree: Hong Kong Hibernian
      6. @Tusk

        …even other asians are turning the Chinese away…

        I’ll respectfully correct you: Asians are turning MAINLAND Chinese away. Here in Hong Kong too.

        Thank God for the protests here which reduced the number of visitors from the mainland by more than 50%.

        Racist? No. It’s common sense.

      7. redan says:

        You didn’t know what rock and roll was
        Until you met my drummer on a grey tour bus
        I got there in the nick of time
        Before he got his hands across your state line

        • Replies: @Grandpa
      8. Rollmop says:
        @Hong Kong Hibernian

        Hong Kong has to integrate properly with the Mainland eventually, and sooner rather than later. That is reality. It will hit “Hongkongers” in about ten years, at which point everyone will quietly forget their Hong Kong identity, it being obvious where the money is, and start being proud Putonghua speakers and red-flag wavers. Disgustingly, that will include most of the current yellow generation. Just as no one had ever been a Nazi in postwar Germany, no one in HK in 2030 will ever admit to having been yellow.

        Not everyone here in HK supports the protests.

        • Agree: d dan, GammaRay
        • Replies: @Adûnâi
      9. @Hong Kong Hibernian

        “BRITISHBRAINSIZEcc” he he Why donbt you go back to your mountains scotchy you will never be considered cantonese you are making a fool of yourself.

        • Replies: @anon
      10. @Smith

        Vietnamese:

        Dựa trên đúng những gì tao biết, không phải từ bọn báo chí Việt Nam, thì bọn chính phủ nó làm cũng căng và cái này thì mình phải công nhận chúng nó có cố gắng ngăn chặn dịch coronavirus chứ ko thể chê đc. Ở miền bắc thì tình hình cũng trong tầm kiểm soát cộng thêm thời tiết cũng nóng nên coronavirus cũng chết nhanh.

        English:

        According to what I actually know, not from Vietnamese news, the Vietnam government prevent the coronavirus so seriously, and we have to admire the government that they are doing their jobs so greatly. In north Vietnam, everything is under control and the weather is hot so the coronavirus cannot survive under the hot temperature.

        • Replies: @d dan
      11. d dan says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        “According to what I actually know, not from Vietnamese news, the Vietnam government prevent the coronavirus so seriously, and we have to admire the government that they are doing their jobs so greatly. “

        Good to hear that. One thing about coronavirus is that it is surprisingly very contagious but not very mortal, so “identify early and quarantine strictly” is the key to the fight. Hope Vietnamese government has the determination like China, and can eradicate coronavirus soon.

      12. anon[191] • Disclaimer says:
        @eastkekiisawhiteguy

        Hibernian is Irish not Scottish.

      13. Muggles says:

        Once again Linh does this and writes about it so we don’t have to. Real travel writing by someone who has done a lot of that and can both think and write. Rare.

        No wonder it is so seldom seen here in the US.

        • Replies: @Kevin Barrett
      14. Chinaman says:
        @Hong Kong Hibernian

        You are not the only Hongkie here.

        I am assuming you are one of the yellow guards who are either unemployed, unemployable or work for the government..or more likely, a white parasite gweilo…because no one who have actually done a honest day of work in their life will say that LESS tourists is better ANY PLACE IN THE WORLD.

        Have you considered the livelihoods of the taxi\bus driver, the service Industry underclass, who basically make up a huge % of the employment in HK which is dependent on tourism ? The knock on effects to the whole economy? No, self-absorbed and callous, you and your ilk don’t care of course.

        HK will always have Chinese tourists and we welcome everyone around the world. ( except Americans)

        If you don’t like it, get the fuck out and don’t come back.

        • Agree: Ghan-buri-Ghan
        • Replies: @Tusk
        , @Colin Wright
        , @Adûnâi
      15. Tusk says:
        @Chinaman

        Funny, I feel as you about American tourists, except in my case it’s Chinese tourists.

      16. @Hong Kong Hibernian

        In Australia, if you’re not at dim sum with a dozen Chinese every morning, you’re a racist.

        • Replies: @Alfred
      17. @Chinaman

        ‘because no one who have actually done a honest day of work in their life will say that LESS tourists is better ANY PLACE IN THE WORLD…’

        I’ve certain done quite a few honest days of work in my life, and I’ll say fewer tourists are better.

        In fact, that’s one of the things that’s better about the US and Canada as compared to Europe: fewer tourists. The great shuffling hordes in Europe are definitely a drag. Over here, the numbers tend to be more reasonable.

      18. Anon[159] • Disclaimer says:

        IMO, this recent Coronavirus is being used a psyops weapon to harm China economically. CIA/DOS/West is also behind orchestrating the Hong Kong protests and stirring up the Uighurs (Muslims are the West’s preferred proxy warriors).

        As a white Westerner, China/NE Asia (the Orient) is my last hope for civilization. I want them protected from the ‘Camp of the Saints’ civilizational destruction we see happening in the West. But with fewer Jews there’ll be fewer problems.

        Two months into this crisis, the death toll has breached 2,000

        For comparison, in China each day there are 47,928 births on average and 26,974 deaths on average. In other words, if you had 2,000 Coronavirus deaths per day it would still be only 7% of overall daily deaths.

        China’s gonna be fine.

        • Agree: Mustapha Mond
      19. @Hong Kong Hibernian

        Hong Kong is going to need tourism in the future, Hong Kong is nothing but a heap of intangible services like banking and law i.e. parasitical activities that can collapse overnight.

        Shenzhen meanwhile is an industrial powerhouse and is just over the border.

        Hong Kong people still see themselves as an upper caste of ethnic Chinese, they are like the Brahmins of India (although unlike the Brahmins, the HKers don’t have much influence in business), they think themselves better because they managed to get their grubby little hands on some of the money their British masters were channeling from the poor coolies on the mainland.

        Just a reminder that HK’s GDP has fallen from 27% of the mainlands to 3% and will only shrink in the future.

        Get ready for more PRC tourists.

      20. Alfred says:
        @Change that Matters

        In Australia, if you’re not at dim sum with a dozen Chinese every morning, you’re a racist.

        I am rather impressed by Australia choosing to keep out the 100,000 Chinese “students” who want to return to their jobs in Australia. I was under the impression that the politicians were terrified of being accused of being racists.

        I guess that their restaurants are empty so their employers are not in a hurry to have them back.

        China to relax its internet restrictions for 100,000 students hit by Australia’s coronavirus travel ban

        BTW, foreign students in Australia can work legally for 20 hours per week. The most successful are the strip-dancers who just get tips and pay no taxes – but they are not often Chinese for some reason. 🙂

      21. Anything that turns back the tide of Chinese tourists and puts these people in check is good. May a hundred-million flowers bloom …

      22. Biff says:
        @Colin Wright

        In fact, that’s one of the things that’s better about the US and Canada as compared to Europe: fewer tourists.

        Because who wants to visit a third world dump that has a soul-less violent authoritarian government?

      23. Bonne merde, monsieur Dinh! Merci.

      24. As a child growing up in South Florida I witnessed many disparaging remarks about Tourists. The focus was on Tourists, and not on who was moving in to the area to stay.

        We eventually imagined billboards placed at the state border:
        “ Visit, but don’t stay!”

        • Replies: @Anon
      25. gdpbull says:

        Its a common misconception among Americans that China supported the North Vietnamese against the South during the Vietnam war. That was true even among US military men in South Vietnam at the time. I briefly knew an otherwise fine young American lieutenant of Mongolian descent who kept telling me he hoped the Chinese would enter the war so that he could kill some Chinese. He was a very tall guy for an east Asian, and was as gung-ho as they get. I kept trying to tell him that the Chinese and Vietnamese are historic enemies and that the Chinese are not likely to ever enter the war and that it was the Soviets that were supporting North Vietnam, not China. But he would hear none of it. He just ranted on and on about hoping China would enter the war.

        In 1979. when the Khmer Rouge started killing ethnic Vietnamese near the Vietnam border, Vietnam entered Cambodia and attacked the Khmer Rouge. China supported the Khmer Rouge and so they decided to “teach Vietnam a lesson”. But it didn’t go so well for China. Vietnam basically kicked their _ss. Yes, China took over a strip of Vietnamese territory, but China never kicked the Vietnamese army out of Cambodia, and the Khmer Rouge was eventually destroyed, thank God.

      26. Moi says:
        @Smith

        Funny how today the Vietnamese are our pals even after we bombed the crap out of them. Do they not have any pride or self-respect…

      27. Wazdo says:

        Linh

        My wife bought me “Poscards” for Christmas and I have just finished it: I am most grateful to you both.

      28. Anon[117] • Disclaimer says:
        @Sunshine State

        I believe Oregon Governor Tom Mc Call pioneered that idea and admonishin back in the 1960’s. An abject failure.

      29. The people want to believe whatever bad news they hear. A Government plague is the kind of idea that spreads everywhere – a good Government writer won’t let previous bad news get in the way. Diabetes and heart disease – no vaccines for those. Instead the conspiracy includes super expensive magic pills to fix cancers. Today, anyone who questions their betters should probably see a psychiatrist or take their meds otherwise the corona will get you.

      30. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
        @gdpbull

        Yet many Chinese nationalist have the nerve to claim CHina supported Vietnam and that Vietnamese are ungrateful. There’s a reason why Vietnamese like Russia and not China. Not to mention China betraying the entire socialist bloc in the 1970s.

      31. Does anyone know what is being grown in the last photo?

        • Replies: @Sally Kendall
      32. @Colin Wright

        Ever pause to think that less tourists in the US might be because the US is increasingly becoming an unpleasant place to visit?

        • Replies: @Colin Wright
        , @theMann
      33. @Moi

        They’re as bad as those damned Japs, aren’t they?

      34. @Muggles

        Funny how the better-paid travel writing in the Sunday supplements and airline magazines is boring, unimaginative, generic, and hardly ever even rises to the level of pretentiousness…while Linh Dinh just keeps cranking out great stuff for chump change.

      35. @Moi

        I truly don’t understand this is troll or being harsh. I suggest you should read:

        https://thesaker.is/special-report-vietnam-between-the-us-russia-and-china/

      36. @alex in San Jose AKA Digital Detroit

        ‘Ever pause to think that less tourists in the US might be because the US is increasingly becoming an unpleasant place to visit?’

        Absolutely. They should definitely stay away.

        Avoid Oregon in particular. It’s a real hell-hole.

      37. TKK says:

        When the Argentinian said something nice about China, the Chinese surprisingly retorted, “Dictatorship!”

        Red Alert! Paging Godfrey! Def Con 5!

        A native Chinese who actually lives there and understands the cultural zeitgeist is speaking truth.

        Red Alert!!!

      38. @anon

        i dont care scoland ireland england you island people are all the same to me he he

      39. theMann says:
        @alex in San Jose AKA Digital Detroit

        The reasons there are “fewer” visitors to the USA are because North America is actually pretty difficult to get to; and, everything is spread out so much that without a car you are limited to NYC, DC, and maybe Chicago.

        In any case, I am skeptical that there is any shortage of foreign visitors to the USA – try Vegas, the Grand Canyon, Carlsbad Caverns and the Alamo for starters. They might not be Rome for foreigners, but there won’t be any shortage of them either.

        Personally I like seeing World Travelers here in Texas. It is friendly, the food is good, and I am just mean enough to love watching people trying to cope with the heat and light. Hint – bring a hat and sunglasses, beer we have.

      40. Alfred says:
        @Kevin Barrett

        Linh Dinh just keeps cranking out great stuff for chump change.

        True. I actually learn something from his monologues. I feel that if I went to these places, I would not be surprised.

        BTW, I try to never be a tourist. I go to places and stay for months. I never go on guided tours or cruises. I stay away from the expat communities and bars.

      41. @Colin Wright

        That’s mostly because America and Canada are much less densely populated than Europe, and there are also far more things to see in Europe, due to its long history and rich culture.
        If you visit New York City or San Francisco, on the other hand, you’ll see plenty of tourists.

      42. @Kevin Barrett

        One thing I’ve always liked about Linh Dinh is that his travel writings always give you an insight into the local culture. He doesn’t hide anything, no matter how unpleasant it might be.

      43. @Kevin Barrett

        Right – more t-shirts than the other guy. A pre-paid ticket every time he flies on a Boeing. Outlets for disaffected rage include penetration, thrifty homosexual vacation rentals and the latest virus.

        How many people has Capitalism actually killed in world wide distribution? Capitalism means prostitution. Millions have to sell their bodies for meaningless jobs most of their lives. Sure, they don’t give up sex, but they give up their souls going back and forth to an office or some other drudgery.

        Chad Varah the founder of The Samaritans charity and an Anglican priest was a consultant on sex education for Penthouse Forum, i.e the more journalistic and less pornographic Penthouse. Why mock a person with those accomplishments? Pay that man handsomely.

      44. @theMann

        You make very good points. People in Europe or even the UK can go to some fairly exotic places that are less far away than Texas is from me here in California. The distances are just mind-boggling.

        And I love seeing/hearing European tourists along I-40/Route 66, who just seem to dig the hell out of the “Western” or “Southwestern” thing. I guess the difference in climate and the feeling in the air must be as different as the ocean in California here and the ocean in Hawaii (they’re very different).

        One thing I keep noticing is that everyone’s view of everywhere tends to be decades and decades out of date. I still think of England in terms of bobbies on bicycles two by two and in general a sort of blend of old war movies, A. A. Milne, and I dunno, Jeeves & Wooster.

        My vision of the mainland US was certainly decades out of date, and I guess I thought it was fundamentally like the 1960s before the hippies became a thing. Jobs galore, easy to get a car and a house, social mobility, etc. Boy was I wrong (came to the mainland in the mid-1980s) and I’m sure visitors here think we’re doing tons better than we actually are.

        Regarding a European visiting TX and thereabouts, check out a movie called Schultzie Gets The Blues which you can get on DVD.

      45. Ruckus says:

        Three hundred thousand Dong is pretty impressive for just half an hour

      46. toyotomi says:
        @gdpbull

        The myth of Vietnamese 1000 -year of chinese domination is starting to be debunked , it was forged in the 1940s by the French ; actually , the two people are similar as British and Americans , they have the same culture .
        According to US historian Mark Moyar in “Triumph forsaken ” :

        [MORE]

        [ It is widely ( and wronly ) believed that a distinctive Vietnamese « identity « or culture can be traced back more than 2000 years before the times when the Han empire conquered the territories corresponding to today Kwang toung and Vietnam . Modern Vietnamese are taught to hail the Trung sisters as independance heroines and VN scholars claimed the archeological sites of Dông son which date prior to the Han conquest as early manifestations of that VN ancient culture .
        However , it is implausible to associate either the Trung sisters or the Dong son sites with anything resembling post Ngô quyên VN culture ; the distinctive features of VN culture appeared during the centuries when successive « Chinese « dynasties ruled directly over today northern Vietnam during the 1st millenium ; features such as language , littérature , philosophy , religion , government , art , culture , cuisine , music ,architecture , technology were derived from , inspired by or modeled upon ideas and practices coming from the larger East Asian i. e. « Chinese « culture ]
        From the appearance of Vietnam since Ngô Quyên , apart of two or three conflicts , the two peoples
        lived friendly and peacefully side by side ; more to it , the Vietnamese rulers never hesitated to call upon their northern suzerains to intervene , in times of internal strife . Still , more to it , since the first French colonial incursions in the 1860s unto 1975 , the two peoples have been fighting friends
        Let’s recall the past :
        _ First Opium War (1839–1842), and Second Opium War (1856–1860 )
        _ Ching China sent troops to fight alongside the VN against French at the start of French conquest of Indochina
        _ the Sino French war 1884- 85 ended with the Tien Tsin treaty ; Ching China recognized French suzerainty over Vietnam
        _ In the 1940s , Vietnamese among them Vo nguyen Giap were trained in Whampoa miliitary academy in Canton
        _ From Mao’s 1949 victory to 1975 , the Chinese communists provided sanctuary , training and extended plenty of material and financial help ; help that was strategically and tactically crucial to VN victories over French and Americans , much more than ( although notable ) Russian help
        VN sayings : Vietnam and Chinese are of the same culture and the same racial ethnie ; VN and China are as “lips and teeth ” . VN people and geographical names are pure Han words , VN vocabulary is two- thirds of Han origin .
        The emperors of the last VN Nguyên dynasty saw themselves as Han people and culture
        Sinocentrism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinocentrism
        https://leminhkhai.wordpress.com/2013/02/22/gia-long-the-ming-descendant/
        More to this , one should read NZ historian Liam Kelly ” South East Asian History Blog ” ; many posts are devoted to the debunking of VN – China eternal enmity or 1000 -years of chinese domination
        • Replies: @Linh Dinh
        , @Oscar Peterson
      47. Adûnâi says:
        @Rollmop

        Just as no one had ever been a Nazi in postwar Germany, no one in HK in 2030 will ever admit to having been yellow.

        Why would you ever take the ravaged and castrated post-1945 Germany as an example of anything good? If anything, modern China = Nazi because they are proud of their country, have a strong Party and a willful Leader, and oppose America.

      48. Adûnâi says:
        @Chinaman

        or more likely, a white parasite gweilo…because no one who have actually done a honest day of work in their life will say that LESS tourists is better ANY PLACE IN THE WORLD.

        Interesting. Aren’t tourists effectively parasites? Aren’t tourists an eye sore? Aren’t tourists a threat to morals?

        Dirty tourists spread disease. Degenerate tourists fuck your women. Lazy tourists turn your men into servers.

        • Replies: @Chinaman
      49. Linh Dinh says: • Website
        @toyotomi

        This is nonsense. Ngô Quyền (9th century), Lý Thường Kiệt (11th century), Trần Hưng Đạo (13th century), Lê Lợi (14th century) and Quang Trung (18th century), among many others, all fought against the Chinese before the French got there. Vietnamese celebrate the fact that they all kicked Chinese asses. Look any of them up to know what I’m talking about.

        As for the language, Vietnamese is simply not Mandarin or even Cantonese. Just because Spanish and French have many words derived from Latin doesn’t mean they’re Italian. Even Catalans and Spaniards aren’t the same people and don’t speak the same language, and there are thousands of similar examples.

        In Si Ma Cai, where I am at the moment, I hear Tai and Hmong on the streets and don’t understand a word of it.

        The notion of Han is itself dubious, for it already incorporates way too many disparate people.

      50. Johan says:
        @Moi

        Because mass tourism is parasitism on hosts which are culturally weak and impotent. A vital people would keep them out, and throw them out, as to return the dubious favour of being submissive and dependent on masses of strangers with the appropriate contempt of one who as enough pride and confidence in himself to not make himself dependent on the depthless boredom of the mass tourist. Mass tourism depends on cultural decline, selling ones history, being impotent to create culture, ones cultural peculiarities, or and in the case of allegedly vital cultures, ones intelligently marketed modern illusions and images to loads of ignorant and bored masses, whom are explicitly asking to be cheated right in their face.

      51. toyotomi says:
        @Linh Dinh

        Seeing the swiftness of your answer , one can see you didn’t take the time to read the excerpts and papers I provided to document my assertions .
        You should take some time and browse thru them and peculiarly the SEA history blog and ponder about it .
        Do you know what ” cognitive dissonance ” is ? People are most reluctant to shed their former knowledge , it is easier to teach them new concepts than to make them jettison their older ones , which are as an invisibly inseparable part of their psyche , of their self pride .

      52. The reasoning I saw for the “accidental Chinese bioweapon” narrative is that Chinese virologists were engineering a particularly virulent strain so that they could run tests on how to protect Chinese people from it. Apparently this is common in similar facilities all over the world, and at least one of the researchers at the Wuhan facility has a confirmed history of working with modified strains of bat coronaviruses.

        All it would take is one minor slip up in the lab, and one of the researchers or lab technicians could be out and about spreading the virus across Wuhan for two whole weeks before they noticed any symptoms themselves.

        • Replies: @Ron Unz
      53. @toyotomi

        The document is nothing more than a Chinese propaganda that is written by Chinese Government or pro-China (and Sinophilia) who has no critical thinking skills and very one side. The argument above is something I and Vietnamese like Linh Dinh also heard many times and this is ridiculous. Do you truly believe China government, with Great Han Ideology, will be honest about their dark part of history? From my own knowledge and observation, China never be honest about the flaws, same to US Hollywood propaganda, they try to brainwash their own people and pro-China around the world to believe that their flaws is somehow victory and most of them does not have practical evidence to support their own propaganda but mythologies instead.

        The problem I find out that for some bizarre reasons, pro-China from European, US, and Russia always applied their mental mind set to make conclusion that everything China say is honest and true meanwhile they truly don’t understand any about Asian mental mind set especially Chinese like “he say he does this but he do that in fact”, “talk is not action” etc.

        Our records about China invasion on Vietnamese is older and we already have before the France come.

        Even Vietnamese is Chinese in biology, SO WHAT????? We Vietnamese never accept to become Chinese in both mental and spirit so what your point when Chinese or pro-China (and Sinophilia) try to convince us we are Chinese?

        To be honest, I deadly and seriously cannot understand why pro-China (and Sinophilia) are unhealthy protective on China like protecting their own motherland.

        • Agree: ivan
        • Replies: @Anonymous
      54. Jason Liu says:

        Many Vietnamese believe the virus was engineered by the US? Or many Chinese? I’m trying to gauge public opinion in Vietnam regarding China — seems like there’s a lot of rabid, if not psychotic hatred for China based on history, but also a sort of closeness and sympathy based on cultural similarities. Very odd and contradictory.

        • Replies: @d dan
      55. Dear Sir,

        I completely agree with you that Vietnamese hatred to China due to China invasion on Vietnam especially their imperialism action on South China Sea is really bizarre and gone wrong. To be honest, I also thought the coronavirus is made by China Government but after review many information from people like James Fetzer with my own knowledge on biological weapon of US and European, I suspect (and conclude immediately) that the coronavirus is US bio weapon. I am in fact try to explain and convince some of my fellow Vietnamese that coronavirus is US bio weapon and show them some Unz reports but none of them trust me and call me nut.

        If you are mainland Chinese, please forgive me if the part “China Imperialism” offends you so much but that is the fact. Chinese Coast Guard actions in South China Sea is nothing more than a Darwin Adward. China 9-dash line on South China Sea is bizarre, unreasonable and very dangerous national security of the country around the South China Sea. Nobody will accept China 9-dash line claim on South China Sea, and there will be not “Hero China protect small countries from Devil AngloZionism in South China Sea”.

      56. @Linh Dinh

        I forget precisely what language group Vietnamese belongs to now, but prior to the 1970’s it was considered part of the Sino-Tibetan language family, which includes all Han Chinese languages. Nowadays Vietnamese is placed by linguists in another category altogether. It’s interesting how much linguistics has changed. Those same pre 1970’s groupings also lumped Japanese and Korean with the Altaic languages (such as Mongolian and Turkish). They are considered language isolates now.

        • Replies: @Hong Xiu Quan
      57. Ron Unz says:
        @AnotherAnon1234

        The reasoning I saw for the “accidental Chinese bioweapon” narrative is that Chinese virologists were engineering a particularly virulent strain so that they could run tests on how to protect Chinese people from it. Apparently this is common in similar facilities all over the world, and at least one of the researchers at the Wuhan facility has a confirmed history of working with modified strains of bat coronaviruses.

        All it would take is one minor slip up in the lab, and one of the researchers or lab technicians could be out and about spreading the virus across Wuhan for two whole weeks before they noticed any symptoms themselves.

        Well, the jury is still out on whether it’s a bioweapon, let alone whether it may possibly have been engineered to be far more lethal to East Asians. But this “accidental release” scenario is *exceptionally* implausible.

        Despite some hand-waving about “protecting Chinese people” it makes very little sense for the Chinese to bioengineer a virus especially deadly to the Chinese. We are also expected to believe that they then—Oops!!—released it in one of their biggest cities, which is doubly implausible.

        But the timing is the unlikeliest element of all. The virus was released in a leading transportation hub just prior to Lunar New Year, the absolute worst time from the Chinese perspective. An accidental release timed so perfectly is exceptionally unlikely. By contrast, 300 American military personnel had been visiting Wuhan just two weeks prior to the first cases appearing, almost exactly the point at which the virus probably first appeared. What a remarkable coincidence!

        As someone noted, suppose 300 Chinese military officers were visiting Chicago, and then immediately afterwards a deadly new virus suddenly appeared there out of nowhere, with Chinese people perhaps relatively immune. Would the US consider this a mere coincidence?

        Another highly suspicious element is that so many American “conspiracy” websites began promoting the ridiculous notion of an accidental Chinese release so quickly, almost as if some Intelligence agency were all prepared with that cover story. And lots of entirely new commenters such as “AnotherAnon1234” appear from nowhere to try to persuade readers of this website that 1+1=5.

        Very, very suspicious…

        • Replies: @d dan
        , @Polemos
      58. TheBoom says:

        Linh, you should write a book on your travels through Vietnam. You do a great job of making it come alive in terms of culture, history and individuals.

      59. sb says:
        @Colin Wright

        As neither an American or European (being Australian ) my experience has been that there is a lot more to experience in Europe but the locals are much friendlier in the US

        Depends what’s important to you

      60. d dan says:
        @Ron Unz

        1. If it was a leak from Wuhan lab, there would probably be some high level arrests or at least quiet removal of key managers. The link (in Chinese) does not indicate any major personnel change has happened:

        http://www.whiov.ac.cn/jggk_105204/lrld/201312/t20131227_4006479.html

        2. Also, take a look of some pictures of Wuhan lab. You guys decide:
        http://www.whiov.ac.cn/jggk_105204/ysfm/201312/t20131227_4006689.html

      61. d dan says:
        @Jason Liu

        “there’s a lot of rabid, if not psychotic hatred for China based on history…”

        Stockholm symptom, perhaps? Certainly odd compare to says, Korea, who also has long history of love-hate relationship with China. Today, Koreans seem to hate its former colonizer more than Chinese. Or maybe average Japanese, like average Chinese, are less skillful in verbal and propaganda than French and other white people?

      62. Whitewolf says:
        @Hong Kong Hibernian

        Racism is common sense. It’s only when White people practice it that it becomes an incomparable evil.

      63. @d dan

        This is not Stockhold Syndrome, this is a combination of self-evidence from China Imperialism actions, Sinophobia propaganda like China Uncensored, pro-First World Country mind set, etc.

      64. Anonymous[153] • Disclaimer says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        To be honest, I deadly and seriously cannot understand why pro-China (and Sinophilia) are unhealthy protective on China like protecting their own motherland.

        Wishful thinking. It’s new and different and they’re just hoping they’ve found a magic formula that can cure the world.

      65. @Hapalong Cassidy

        Vietnamese belongs to the Austro asiatic group of languages.

      66. ivan says:
        @gdpbull

        The Chicoms were the only friends the genocidal maniacs had. Stands to reason as the Chicoms are no mean genocidal maniacs themselves.

        • Replies: @awry
      67. Anon[263] • Disclaimer says:

        If I am a Vietnamese, I will hate China and love America. #me too#
        Though I am actually Chinese, I understand this is very practical choice for Vietnamese:

        1. China is close, America is far away. Both are stronger country that have hurt Vietnam in the past. China have much chance/reasons to hurt Vietnam again in theory in the future.

        2. China didn’t hurt Vietnam enough like the America did. Just the kind of enough for hate, not enough for love.
        You need to understand this phenomenon. Hurt someone, she will hate you; hurt her more, her fell in love with you. This is in human nature, hurt a person beyond what he can handle, he fell for you to make his life feel better. It’s self-protection.
        Their is logic behind this: those hurts from the loved ones = some sort of ‘doesn’t count’. (unless you can suddenly handle this ‘loved one’ of yours)

        3. But if you consider the really long long old old history, China did ‘hurt'(I’d say govern) Vietnam more than America. That’s why some Vietnamese love China deeply in the blood, because China is in their blood. Oops. They don’t even need to go check the genes.

        4. Vietnamese will lose their identity, if they stop hate China. They become Chinese, they become Han(at least the northern part). It’s this hate that keep them independent. It’s this hate maintained their existence.

        Even if in the future, China is powerful enough to dominate the east Asia area again, Vietnamese need to continue hate China.
        Honestly, I want to you to go on with the hate forever. Because we don’t want you as my fellow man. I just want to do business with you. But we don’t want you.

        As for Mongolian, they hate China and love Russian, though USSR hurt them more. Reasonable.
        Mongolian lives in mid-age Genghis khan dream. They generally hate every one. But they hate China especially.
        Just two neighbors for them to hate, they hate us more, how can I blame them? We don’t want to win the hurt race with USSR, so let the Mongolian hate.

        For the disputed area of South China Sea, they were never disputed when China was powerful country in ancient times. Once the colonial power from EU come to Asia, all the surrounding areas of China become disputable. Once the colonial influences pushed out of area, disputes will be settled among Asia people peacefully, generally.

        Read the history, Powers get respected, morally, or not that morally. Finally powers get respected. That’s the truth.
        You can make up with your victim face, go on with your propaganda of demonize China and side with the west. Your stand is well understood.
        Doesn’t matter much as long as you just talk. If you act, we respond in act also. You go on with the victim talk, we ignore you. You act again, we respond again. Let’s repeat. Easy game.

        Maybe you just want to respect the recent decades’ history. Some others just want to respect the recent centuries’ history. But, sorry, China want to respect the recent millenniums’ history.
        Sorry, we are different.

        As for the China-Vietnam war in 70s-80s.
        1. Vietnam grow wild ambition to unit/dominant Indo-China-Peninsula after Vietnam pushed USA out of the country with very big help from China.
        2. Vietnam sided with USSR during the time. While China-USSR relationship gradually broke up in the 50s-60s as USSR grow wild ambition to dominant China.
        3. China made a choice, decided to side with US in the 70s-80s to fight the cold war against USSR.

        So China ‘punished’ Vietnam. That’s all!
        Vietnam made the choice (wild ambition) and paid the price (war).

        Now China make the new choice to fight against USA (since USA grow the wild ambition to dominant the world forever after winning of the cold war) and pay the price (trade war, high tech war, bio-chemical war, any wars… to come )
        Yes, China decided to pay the price, any price.
        Whatever happens in the future, respect that.

        Chinese just hate been dominated by others. (Unless you dominate us in our way, with our language, by our people, under our systems, we will consider to marry you, yes we can manage to love you and your dowry, sincerely, finally…yes you got me)

        I understand you Vietnamese, you don’t want be dominated by other too.
        Fine. We work that out, trade, business, peace, that could be good enough for both of us. Right?
        Just don’t you try to side with others who want to dominate us. And pretend that you are innocent harmless people.
        You see the Chinese bottom line? Very simple, you don’t meddle me, I don’t meddle you, you don’t side with those who try to meddle me. You just be yourself. We can manage to co-exist.
        Nobody that maintains the identity and independence in this jungle world is an idiot. Not you, not me. If you continue the victim face too long, you will become the real victim.

        Respect the fact. You will be respect by fact.

      68. @Kevin Barrett

        He should film his experiences and put them on YouTube. I’m sure it would be far better than anything on television.

      69. Uncle Linh,

        If you are going to catch anything then make sure it’s from a beautiful Chinese woman and not from an ill chinaman. Safe travels!

        Reader

        • LOL: Commentator Mike
      70. Chinaman says:
        @Adûnâi

        What goes around comes around . I will go to your country and fuck your women and do these degenerate things. and you will love me for it. The difference being that I blow lot of money and tip Eur 50 in Italy. Everyone loves me.

        That’s what the economy is and what the service industry is nowadays…it is how a lot of people survive. I go to the empty Michelin 3 stars restaurants and support it because the locals can’t afford it. Those who say less tourist is better have never benefited from it of course but this is people’s livelihoods. I don’t either but I emphasize.

        Your definition is wrong. Parasites don’t pay. If you see how many white parasites in HK just go around drinking champagne from other people’s table or finishing other people’s cigar butt. It is shame.

        The Chinese tourist always pays ( whether they want to or not)

        • Replies: @LoutishAngloQuebecker
      71. In the Chinese zodiac, there is a 60 years cycle. Currently we are in the year of the metal rat. The previous metal rat year was 1960. The one before that was 1900, and before that it was 1840.
        Each of these years saw China go through a major crisis.
        1960 coincided with the Great Famine that resulted from Mao’s ruinous Great Leap Forward.
        1900 saw the Ching dynasty’s Empress Dowager unleash the Boxers upon Westerners and all Christians, triggering a concerted military intervention from the Great Powers of he time that culminated into the sack of the Forbidden City, and hefty indemnities.
        1840 coincided with the Opium Wars, at the end of which, China was forced to cede Hong Kong to Great Britain, on top of hefty compensatuons.
        China’s “Communist” regime should have met it’s demise in 1990 at the time of the bloody Tienanmen crackdown. But whereas the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact countries collapsed, China was spared a similar fate by American Jews who saw the benefit of turning China into the world’s sweatshop.
        But the time is up this time. Coronavirus virus and America’s realization of its mistake will make sure that Xi Jinpin will be China’s last Chairman, just as the Empress Dowager was the Ching Dynasty’s last of the line. Good riddance.

      72. Chinaman says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        Looking back at last 1-2 million years of human evolution and how many genus of humans have been wiped out ( denisovan and Neanderthals etc) have being wiped out since then, I see the last 1000 years of bad blood between Vietnam and China a minor rift between blood brothers.

        The river of evolution don’t stopped and I see an existential crisis for East Asians ( Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese and Koreans) in the next few centuries as white people try to eliminate us as a racial group as they did with aboriginals in Australia and other native populations all over the world. These genocidal tendencies are in their blood. They are already fucking our women and trying to assimilate us. I have not forgotten about the My Lai massacre. My blood boils when I think the suffering that the Americans have brought to my Vietnamese brothers and sisters. Do you think they feel any remorse? These are baby killers. Do you really think they are done with Vietnam?

        I guess apologizing for everything my ancestors or the Chinese governments have done in the last 1000 years doesn’t make any difference. As it is futile to ask the Japanese to atone for their war crimes in Nanking. That’s all in the past. I don’t mind to be ruled by Ho Chi Minh or some Japanese. We are all brothers sharing the same cultural roots. ( which begun in China) But I will fight to my last breath against any invasion from the West. East Asians, with an higher IQ, are the only race capable of defeating them in the coming war but only if we stand united.

        Race is a biological reality, not a label or a historical narrative that not some nationalistic propaganda the governments feed us. I could be easily Vietnamese as you are Chinese. For our children, It is time to put our differences away and face the real threat to our survival.

        • Agree: Alfred
        • Replies: @anon
        , @gT
      73. Chinaman says:
        @Reader from Hongkong

        𨳒你老母你條黃屍含能啦, 係的白鬼面前唱衰自己種族,人定當你condom 咋.

        返去連登啦

        There is also a remote possibility that you are a white guy in HK…in which case, I would like to tell you to go take your meds. You are obviously suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Your innumeracy and obsession with cycles put in the same camp as Charles Manson. You are a danger to yourself and others.

      74. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
        @Chinaman

        You’re the first Chinese person I’ve seen with some common sense. Other Chinese I’ve encountered seem to love Westerners but hate and look down on other Asians. Those people are truly deluded lemmings.

      75. @Anon

        This is very reasonable explain to me. However, I have to disagree on few things:

        1. China helped Vietnam is actually to keep Vietnam being divided into North and South like North Korean and South Korean today, I mean China help Vietnam to keep ONLY North Vietnam survive. In a fair point, I will said that both Vietnam and China tried to back-stab each other. However, in my personal opinion from what I research, China helping on Vietnam was actually Foie gras during the Resistance War Against US, that the fact. I suggest you should read:

        https://thesaker.is/special-report-vietnam-between-the-us-russia-and-china/

        https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/112982 (I know this is CIA but this is pretty accurate after I double check with some Vietnamese veterans).

        2. I heard the story that “China attacked Vietnam to save entire East Asian from being invaded by Vietnam” and this is nonsense. Because:

        a. In 1976, Polpot, with the military support from China, began to invade Vietnam, and Vietnam fought back.

        b. During 1975-1979, Vietnam social and political was unstable because Vietnam Communism still went around to arrest SVN soldiers and send them the re-education camp. Vietnam, in fact, is not unity during this time.

        c. Only insane people can think about invade other countries after escape from war and Vietnamese generals were not insane.

        In conclusion, Vietnam didn’t have ability to invaded entire East Asia.

        3. Deng Xiaoping invaded Vietnam because:

        a. To save the genocidal Polpot and they failed.

        b. To expose hard cold fact that Soviet Union could not support Vietnam weapon so greatly like may people belive.

        c. To destroy the Communism faction from the within and prove to US that China is a great allied to US. Take a note that US began to move out their factories to China in slow speed like little by little during the 1980s and give China so much technologies.

        4. So-called China ancient claimed on South China Sea is irrelevance right now. Ancient times is not today, China 9-dash lined on South China Sea is ridiculous, nonsense, and dangerous is national security of the country around the SCS. Nobody is going to accept the 9-dash lined claim.

        5. China was invaded by Western and Japan does not mean that China is not imperialism. Their actions in SCS, and Ten Great Campaign is the proof to prove China is an imperialism and opportunism country, not anti-imperialism

        6. Today, Vietnam does not meddle with China first and China is the one who meddle with Vietnam and other countries first.

        The problem I have here is Chinese elite class is very arrogant and greedy so they always mess with country around the SCS like a boss. Be wary that US always try to provoke China and Vietnam to kill each other in many sinister ways so US will kill the remain and survive one.

        I also piss off on my fellow Vietnamese because their Sinophilia mind set had blind them to detect another future threat to Vietnam like AngloZionism.

        I am radically support Vietnam ABSOLUTELY Neutral policy to save the country from being drag into nonsense war at least right now.

        That my opinion about Vietnam and China. I truly hope Vietnam and China can solve the distrust at each other and being friend in the future.

      76. Chinaman says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        The 9 dash line in South CHINA sea only become contentious when the Americans get involved and run their aircraft carriers in our backwaters. These guys can turn on Vietnam at a dime too.

        I personally don’ care about a imaginary line and if Vietnam wants a piece of the action in digging for the oil underneath , I think the top leadership will see the logic in that as long as both parties agree where to point the gun barrel to. No one lives on the line so who cares…what’s need is mutual trust and alignment of interests.

        If China and Russia is defeated by America, who do you think will the next on the map ? These bloodthirsty Americans will come to Vietnam to finish what they started, just to prove a point. No one is neutral in a world war. As Bush say, you are either with us or against us.

      77. d dan says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        “China helping on Vietnam was actually Foie gras during the Resistance War Against US, that the fact. I suggest you should read…”

        I read the link. There are plenty of errors and propaganda. If you want to believe CIA lies, there is nothing I can argue. But I just want to clarify the following:

        1. Zhou EnLai did not believe Vietnam had the military power to beat US. Dien Bien Phu will not be repeated against US.

        2. If US committed its full military might to invade the north, only China would come to save Vietnam, Soviet would not. The combined power of China and Vietnam would not be able to expel US. These were exactly the conclusions China learned from the Korea War.

        3. Ho Chi Ming was very popular in the South too. Zhou believed that Ho would win in a free election, and communist could unite Vietnam through peaceful means.

        “I heard the story that “China attacked Vietnam to save entire East Asian from being invaded by Vietnam” and this is nonsense.”

        Vietnam might or might not intend to invade other SE Asian countries, but there was a real fear among ASEAN (from Thailand, Malaysia to Singapore) that Vietnam might do that. Deng’s invasion of Vietnam was quite popular among ASEAN at that time.

      78. @Chinaman

        That why China (I mean the Chinese Elite) must change their own behavior on the South China Sea before too late. Look, before 2014, Vietnam and China just have disputed on South China Sea like two old women argued with each other, nothing more. Since the 2014, Chinese Coast Guard have harassed, rammed, and sank fisher boat that include Vietnamese ones. The problem here is that the 9-dash lined is not build to protect the country around from US like China claim, it is build to serve their own imperialism agenda and the so-called mutual interest in SCS must be in China own definition, and this is not good because from what I understand is the country around SCS must become Chinese vassal states, and no one can accept this. The problem I found out that for some bizarre reason China truly want to become an imperialism empire but they are extremely bad to do it without a clearly direction.

        Remember one thing: China Talk Is Not China Action.

        The Chinese 5th column in East Asia countries are forcing the country to become the Chinese vassal states. I will quote the comment from the link:

        https://thesaker.is/special-report-vietnam-between-the-us-russia-and-china/

        Now, let’s put the big picture into perspective. China was not pleased to see a unified Vietnam, especially one that is allied with the USSR. It instigated an attack by the Khmer Rouge from Cambodia. Vietnamese leadership knew too well that the southern part of Vietnam cannot be defended if Cambodia is hostile, for it itself took advantage of the Cambodian territory during the war against SVN. Inside Vietnam, it was estimated the Chinese ethnic to top 2 million, with 1.5 million in Saigon area and 300 thousands in North Vietnam. The problem posed for Vietnam was evident: no stability and peace if the Khmer Rouge continue their hostilities on Beijing’s order, but invading Cambodia would trigger a fierce response from Beijing and Vietnam would have no chance of resisting with such a huge Chinese 5th column. Thus, while defending the territory against Khmer aggression (without ever crossing the border into Cambodia), the Vietnamese applied methodically all measures aimed at breaking the back of the Chinese 5th column, from economic to social measures. That led to the bankruptcy of 50 thousand important Chinese owned businesses, and eventually hundreds of thousands of people of Chinese descent forced to leave Vietnam. In the meantime, Hanoi set up a group of pro Vietnamese Cambodians to govern Cambodia in the near future.

        This is an explain from Conical Hat about Chinese 5th Column:

        https://thesaker.is/special-report-vietnam-between-the-us-russia-and-china/#comment-101910

        Regarding the 5th column, personally I think most Chinese in Vietnam were busy doing business and just wanted to live like everyone. However, my personal opinion is irrelevant. The Vietnamese leadership at that time got that threat perception. The Chinese community was an influential community in the economy of Vietnam in general and in SVN in particular. And the fact was that there was a very efficient network of Chinese agents (working for Beijing, not Taiwan) that could influence (I don’t want to use the term manipulate) the community, because the Vietnamese communist agents worked in coordination with them during the war. So, the Vietnamese (leaders) knew first hand how efficient (thus potentially dangerous if you are on different sides) the Chinese network could be. They took the decision to force that community to leave Vietnam. That was how they perceived, not how I think that Chinese are 5th column. Paranoid attitude is common during tensions; just look at the Americans who put the Japanese Americans into camps during WWII. I agree with you that a lot of personal assets were grabbed during that period, from Chinese and also from Vietnamese (all the so-called “capitalists” in communist lexicon). But if that was the goal, then they could have just grabbed the assets without forcing the Chinese to leave or with forcing them to go to the so called new economic zones as happened to a lot of Vietnamese.

        About the part:

        If China and Russia is defeated by America, who do you think will the next on the map ? These bloodthirsty Americans will come to Vietnam to finish what they started, just to prove a point. No one is neutral in a world war. As Bush say, you are either with us or against us.

        This is a billion question that I already have in my mind. You and I and others cannot know what truly will happen in the future and I also have the same question to some of my fellow Vietnamese and no one can give me a correct answer. However, let me tell you what I know from own observation, I find out that for some reason US and European usually fund some Vietnamese anti-communism organizations or individual like Viet Tan, Mother Mushroom, Dieu Cay, etc. come to mess up our social and political but at the same time they also don’t forget to put some economic deal that good to both sides in some way. I find out the Vietnam Neutral politic is unique in some crazy ways that make many country can hate Vietnam but also cannot hate Vietnam at the same time. However, this is that my own observation and opinion so it can be irrelevance.

        Your explain is very reasonable. I hope China, Vietnam, and others can figure out how to work each other but China must prove themselves first.

        • Replies: @Chinaman
      79. @d dan

        I believe my explain make you misunderstand, and my bad:

        My point here is that from what I actually know that Vietnam and China try to use and back-stab each other so much during the cold war. I mean China help Vietnam to gain profits from helping Vietnam. I told that before I know the CIA record, I had heard so much how Le Duan deal with China officials like Zhou En Lai, how China worked with US to divided Vietnam into North and South like what they had done to Korea. Since the 1954 especially the 17th parallel north incident, North Vietnamese top officials had began suspect something spooky between China and US. Anything from the CIA document is true. I know CIA is a bunch of liar but that does not mean they are entirely wrong and I am very selective about this. Result, Vietnam won China on “Back-stab contest”.

        Let me tell a story I heard: During the 1960s, China would give Vietnam about 500 trucks with a condition that the drivers must be Chinese not Vietnamese. Le Duan refused immediately because the Chinese drivers could be spies. Le Duan accepted to lose the 500 trucks for Vietnam national security.

        The fear monger about Vietnam would invaded the whole East Asian is really hogwash, I am 100% confident to tell you that Vietnam never had any plan to invade the whole East Asian. This is not Vietnam fault for the whole ASEAN fear, this is the fault of someone who make the rumor. The problem here, after liberation of South Vietnam, Vietnam had suffered so much from the war, the social and political is unstable so much, in common sense, how Vietnam top officials can think about invading the whole East Asia, no one from what I know or hear can be insane like that.

        Ho Chi Minh is popular in South China does not mean China does not have any plan to invade Vietnam.

      80. @gdpbull

        Be serious… Vietnam was attacking Laos and Cambodia long before 1979. The invasion accomplished what the rest of South East Asia hoped for (who along with the US – were happy China was going to “teach Vietnam a lesson” – and who also supported the Khmer Rouge since they were anti Vietnam). As you noted – the Soviets were the bigger supporters of Vietnam (though China taught them tactics that worked against the US in Korea) – and Deng Xiaoping told the Soviets if they tried to intervene – there would be all out war… China amassed troops along the Russian border. It was the Soviets telling Vietnam they weren’t going to intervene that stopped Vietnam attempting to go further. China accomplished it’s mission. And yes thankfully the Rouge ended… But so did much of Vietnamese influence in Cambodia. Not sure why everyone skips over that.

      81. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        You need to learn real Vietnamese history then. The Republic of China as a western ally drew up an 11 dash line and was approved of by the west – which forced Japan to return those islands to China after WW2. When the PRC took over Vietnamese leaders acknowledged Chinese sovereignty and then the People’s Republic shortened the 11 dashes down to 9 to appease Vietnam. Those are facts… Not sure why you didn’t learn them.

      82. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        Fake history…. Vietnam was working with the Soviets to turn South East Asia into part of the Soviet Bloc… That’s why even the US was giving China intelligence against Vietnam to stop it. The rest of ASEAN was happy for it. Read Lee Kwan Yew’s memoirs. He said it himself that all the leaders in ASEAN were glad China attacked Vietnam because they knew Vietnamese designs. The US only helps people like yourself play the innocent victim because it wants you to be cannon (missile) fodder against China now.

      83. @showmethereal

        I’m so sorry but you truly believe the entire of Chinese record on Vietnam history is 100% right then you should believe the 9-11, Colin Powell’s “chemical tube”, etc. is real. I cannot trust the foreign record on history of my country Vietnam immediately. I’m so sorry, China had a track record to whitewash their own flaws and crime same to US Hollywood Propaganda.

        I know that 9 or 11 dash lines was drawn by the Republic of China but so what? The thing didn’t even have anything relate to current situation right now Past is not present and the dash line is extremely dangerous to national security of the country around South China Sea right now. Nobody will accept the dash line. That look again the dash line.

        The part:

        When the PRC took over Vietnamese leaders acknowledged Chinese sovereignty and then the People’s Republic shortened the 11 dashes down to 9 to appease Vietnam. Those are facts… Not sure why you didn’t learn them.

        Are you talking about Pham Van Dong’s letter or what? If you talk about the Pham Van Dong letter is here:

        Vietnamese:

        Thưa Đồng chí Tổng lý,

        Chúng tôi xin trân trọng báo tin để Đồng chí Tổng lý rõ:

        Chính phủ nước Việt Nam Dân chủ Cộng hòa ghi nhận và tán thành bản tuyên bố, ngày 4 tháng 9 năm 1958, của Chính phủ nước Cộng hòa Nhân dân Trung Hoa, quyết định về hải phận 12 hải lý của Trung Quốc.

        Chính phủ nước Việt Nam Dân chủ Cộng hòa tôn trọng quyết định ấy và sẽ chỉ thị cho các cơ quan Nhà nước có trách nhiệm triệt để tôn trọng hải phận 12 hải lý của Trung Quốc trong mọi quan hệ với nước Cộng hòa Nhân dân Trung Hoa trên mặt biển.

        Chúng tôi xin kính gửi Đồng chí Tổng lý lời chào rất trân trọng.

        English Translation:

        Dear Comrade Prime Minister

        We would like to inform you that:

        The Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and supports the September 4, 1958 Declaration by the People’s Republic of China, regarding the territorial waters of China.

        The Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to absolutely respect the 12 mile nautical territory of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea.

        We would like to send you our sincere regards

        The letter is extremely vague in many level, I don’t even understand what Pham Van Dong was talking about. Can you explain the part “the 12 mile nautical territory of China” mean? It doesn’t even mean the entire South China Sea.

        9 dash line or 11 dash line does not change the fact the fact that China claim entire SCS is nonsense and very dangerous. I truly don’t know where you get the information “When the PRC took over Vietnamese leaders acknowledged Chinese sovereignty and then the People’s Republic shortened the 11 dashes down to 9 to appease Vietnam“. China can make up the lies

        By the way, there is no invasion on Lao, I don’t know what are you talking about.

        About invasion on Cambodia, Polpot was the one invade Vietnam first in the South, the genocidal maniac invaded Phu Quoc Island and massacre about 500 people. I can review more information from the link:

        https://thesaker.is/special-report-vietnam-between-the-us-russia-and-china/

        China invaded Vietnam to save the Polpot mainly, proved to US that China was trustee ally, and exposed the hard cold fact that Soviet Union could not support Vietnam like both Vietnam and Russia had exaggerated. I ave explained in the comment above that Vietnam in both practical reason and common sense that Vietnam didn’t have any plan to invaded the whole ASEAN because Vietnam didn’t have ability to do it. The whole ASEAN was happy does not mean the claim Vietnam wanted to invade the South East Asia is true and this is a lied, of course, and ASEAN was happy about “China punished Vietnam” was same to Americans was happy about the death of Osama Bin Laden meanwhile there was no proof to prove that is true Osama Bin Laden.

        Lee Kwan Yew’s memoirs is a liar book same to Piltdown Man hoax, nothing more, I can even make up many lies about this that more extraordinary than Lee Kwan Yew himself. If you truly believe Lee Kwan Yew’s books, then you should believe Colin Powell’s books, Hollywood movies and anything like that. ASEAN, of course, was happy because they think the lies is true. There are many books that contain many lies so much. I present and explain to you other people about WHAT I ACTUALLY HEARD from the Vietnamese veterans, not Vietnam government propaganda, who survive during the 1950s to 1980s.

        • Replies: @showmethereal
      84. Chinaman says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        I remembered I was at the war museum in Ho Chi Minh city and the pictures of the atrocities, the children affected by agent orange and the struggles of the Vietnamese was extremely powerful affected me emotionally. I think every Chinese should visit the museum and understand what the West have done to Vietnam and what await China if they holds any illusion about the West. This solidarity will resolve any difference between the 2 countries.

        The museum was full of people but was completely silent. Everyone was solemn and in a pensive mood. I was viewing the pictures of the children which was affected by agent orange when I heard some giggles beside me. This white motherfucker which must be less than 16 was also looking at the pictures and was grinning like an idiot, trying to contain himself from full blown laughter. I took offence immediately and accosted him. I asked him “ what so funny? “ and asked where his parent are. I wanted to tell his parent that his son’s behaviour was totally inappropriate and I am going to tell the curator about it if he doesn’t stop. He just kept laughing.

        At that moment, I am no longer Chinese but a Vietnamese. Politics, race and all these other squabbles fades away to the realisations that we are brothers fighting against an evil soulless people.

        The white beasts are our mortal enemy and we should stand in solidarity against them. To them, we are the same yellow dogs. ( as a Unz commentor puts it). Our survival are in the hands of each other. I know this is naive and realpolitik don’t work that way. Vietnamese are a proud people and there will always be fiction between the 2 countries which shares a border… but these conflict should always be resolved under the principle that it doesn’t allow America to take advantage of the situation or use one against the other.

        ( true story. I couldn’t even make this shit up…)

        • Replies: @eastkekiisawhiteguy
      85. Rollmop says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        Actually the US itself accepted the Nine Dash Line — back when China was run by the Nationalists. No prizes for guessing when, or why, they changed their mind.

        So much for ‘no one would accept it’.

        The PRC was one of the last countries to start militarizing islands in the SCS. Vietnam has militarized more, and started before China did.

        • Replies: @showmethereal
      86. ivan says:
        @Reader from Hongkong

        The Soviet Union collapsed in 72 years. It is now 72 odd years since the accursed Communists came on the scene in China. Time for them to be consigned to the dustbin of history. Would like see Xi our Chinese Stalin swing from the end of a rope. How is all that control , the almost perfect Panopticon state working out?

      87. @Linh Dinh

        Well said. I can’t agree with you more. The megalomaniacal belief that they are the centre of the universe persists in the Chinese mentality in spite of all proof to the contrary. Today as Chinese live under a perpetual struggle between an intertwined inferiority/superiority complex that has been wonderfully portrayed by the modern Chinsese author Lu Xun in his novel The True Story of Ah Q.

        As for China portraying itself as the underdog valiantly fighting American imperialism, the Uighurs in Xinjiang (East Turkestan) and the Tibetans would beg to differ.

      88. gT says:
        @Chinaman

        Sounds like China is now getting scared and wants to make friends with the neighbours they have always treated with contempt and wanted to assimilate.

        • Replies: @Chinaman
      89. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        The interview with son of Lê Duẩn, Lê Kiến Trung, had indirectly and accidentally confirm the entire or most or some part of CIA document “Comrade B” is true.

        The Interview:
        https://vn.sputniknews.com/vietnam/201707303710047-con-trai-le-duan-li-kien-trung/

        This is the part of the interview in Vietnamese:

        Ngay cả trong các cuộc gặp với ba tôi, một lãnh đạo của bạn đã nói: “Các đồng chí, tôi muốn nói cho các đồng chí biết điều này. Các đồng chí không cần làm cách mạng, tôi là chủ tịch của 500 triệu nông dân đang thiếu đất, và tôi sẽ mang một đạo quân tiến xuống khu vực Đông Nam Á”.

        Khi nghe câu nói đó ba tôi đã cảm nhận ra ngay ý đồ của họ và dặn lòng mình luôn phải cảnh giác với dã tâm ấy. Ba tôi từng viết về một cuộc đối thoại giữa ông và một lãnh đạo của họ (xin phép không nói rõ tên của nhà lãnh đạo đó — xin đổi là ông ta — PV) như thế này:

        Ông ta hỏi tôi: Ở Lào, có bao nhiêu cây số vuông đất?

        Tôi (Lê Duẩn) trả lời: Khoảng 200.000 cây số vuông.

        Ông ta hỏi: Dân số của họ bao nhiêu?

        Tôi trả lời: Khoảng 3 triệu!

        Ông ta nói: Như vậy là không nhiều! Tôi sẽ đưa dân tôi đến đó, thật mà!

        Ông ta hỏi: Có bao nhiêu cây số vuông đất ở Thái Lan?

        Tôi trả lời: Khoảng 500.000 cây số vuông.

        Ông ta hỏi: Có bao nhiêu người?

        Tôi trả lời: Khoảng 40 triệu!

        Ông ta nói: Một tỉnh của nước tôi có 500.000 cây số vuông, nhưng có tới 90 triệu người. Tôi cũng sẽ đưa một số người dân của tôi tới Thái Lan!

        Now I translated into English:

        At the meeting with my dad and Chinese Colleagues, one Chinese officials said: “Comrades, I want to tell you guys one thing. You guys don’t need to do revolution, I am a chairman of 500 million farmers who don’t have land to farm, and I will send an army to South East Asia”.

        My dad already detected Chinese true agenda when he heard what that guy said and told us always to be wary on the plan. My dad had written a conversation between him and one official (please I can’t named the official-refer as “he”-by the interviewer):

        He asked me: How much square kilometers of Laos?

        I (Lê Duẩn) answer: About 200,000 square kilometers.

        He asked: How much of the population?

        I answered: About 3 millions!

        He said: Not enough! I will send my people to the land, really!

        He asked: How much of square kilometers in Thailand?

        I answered: About 500,000 square kilometers.

        He asked: How much of the population?

        I answered: About 40 millions!

        He said: One province in my country has 500,000 square kilometers, but it has 90 millions people. I will send some of my people to Thailand!

        Now this is the part of conversation from the CIA Document “Comrade B”:

        https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/112982

        I will say more to you comrades so that you may see more of the military importance of this matter. Mao asked me:

        In Laos, how many square kilometers [of land] are there?

        I answered:
        About 200,000 [sq. km.].

        What is its population? [Mao asked]:

        [I answered]: Around 3 million!

        [Mao responded:] That’s not very much! I’ll bring my people there, indeed!

        [Mao asked:] How many square kilometers [of land] are there in Thailand?.

        [I responded]: About 500,000 [sq. km.].

        And how many people? [Mao asked].

        About 40 million! [I answered].

        My God! [Mao said], Szechwan province of China has 500,000 sq. km., but has 90 million people. I’ll take some more of my people there, too [to Thailand]!

        So from the interview of Lê Kiến Trung, the CIA document “Comrade B” is true.

      90. 2000 death toll is not a big deal, and infection cases are going down. Corona is less of a problem than the flu.

      91. Anonymous[130] • Disclaimer says:
        @Anon

        Why would you want the Vietnamese to become a part of the Han? They have a lower IQ, and their language is godawful. If they become assimilated, their language will spill over into the Chinese language.

      92. @Kevin Barrett

        Agreed Linh writes with the perspective as only a witness to the horrors of modern late stage capitalism can provide. The drama out in street scenes in cities and rural areas Linh’s gimlet eye record with wit and humanity the “full catastrophe”.

      93. With all due respect Ron, I think you’re being too paranoid. I did get a good chuckle at seeing myself written off as a spook.

        I’m a relatively recent but regular reader, not a bot or CIA troll (although I guess they would say just that…). I don’t regularly comment on articles anywhere, and didn’t think I’d bother commenting here again, hence the hasty no-brain name. But if I see a point raised that is unsupported and not already dealt with in the comments, I will occasionally comment myself.

        Assuming the virus is engineered (as I do), I think accidental release is the most likely explanation. Mostly because I don’t think even our intelligence agencies could be so stupid as to do this – if it comes out that the virus was definitely engineered, and the Chinese don’t find the source in their own labs, it’ll be obvious that we did it.

        I suppose it’s in the realm of possibility. If you combine Gordon Chang-type delusions about the fragility of the CCP with the especially flippant sociopathy of this administration… perhaps. However, I still think it’s beyond the pale of what even our degenerate government would do, for pragmatic if not moral reasons. This would effectively be a declaration of open biological war against a nation that can give as good as it gets.

        As for arguments specifically agsinst accidental release:

        The outbreak was timed very poorly, exactly a month before Chinese New Year. But the month preceding CNY is still 1/12 of the year. A 1/12 chance of landing in the leadup to CNY isn’t impossible odds.

        The US military detachment’s timing was also fortuitous, but would the US govt choose to use uniformed soldiers to spread a plague? Surely an anonymous traveler would be the better choice. All you need to do is swab a few doorhandles and wait for people to touch their faces.

        And if we can discuss as plausible a potential US bioattack on China using a racially-targeted artificial virus, surely the Chinese would consider the same possibility? Why would they not work to protect themselves against such a threat?

        The thing that first got me interested in the possibility of an accidental release was a post by Rod Dreher on the American Conservative. He linked to a long 3rd party piece outlining the case for it (https://harvardtothebighouse.com/2020/01/31/logistical-and-technical-analysis-of-the-origins-of-the-wuhan-coronavirus-2019-ncov/). I’m not 100% in on it, but the accidental release explanation is at least plausible. I would rank US bioweapon as the next most likely, but again, I don’t think even the current US govt would take that big of a risk.

        • Replies: @Ron Unz
      94. @Chinaman

        Most of the world was neutral on Bush, which made no difference, because Bush was a terrible president anyhow.

        Compare the US before Bush was elected and afterwards. Clinton, for all his BJ’s, was not bad economically. American had a decent standard of living in the nineties. It seems halcyon now. I was in my teens and early twenties in the 90’s and I know.

        Look at life after the Bush era.

      95. Anon[263] • Disclaimer says:

        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        you sound like a kid.

        you simply refuse anything that you don’t like, deny everything that is not in favor of you.
        you call them irrelevant, lie…

        But in the meantime, you want others to take care of your calls, listen to your need, you make up with your details, and you want others to prove themselves for you…

        WOW!

        Assuming you are not a kid, why is some adult behave like this?
        Is this the Vietnam national mentality in front of China? I am kinda surprised!

        Remember that, even though you are a little cousin, China prefer to treat you as an equal adult. And you’d better behave like one. Because that’s how you survive in this real world.

        Grow up, kid.
        Don’t take others for granted.

      96. awry says:
        @ivan

        The West supported the Khmer Rouge too (as the Chicoms were “allies” against the USSR). They recognized them as the legitimate government (even after the Vietnamese invasion which they considered an act of agression), allowed the KR to have bases in Thailand etc.

        • Agree: showmethereal
      97. utu says:

        Whatever where the differences between different brands of communism and which was more vile and criminal, it was a good thing that Vietnam brought the rule of the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia to the end.

      98. Chinaman says:
        @gT

        I am terrified of American and white people in general. All chinaman are. Americans are the only people who have ever nuked another country. Assassinate another country’s leader and have no compunction about torturing people worldwide. No one have match its kills on other races after WW2. I count 6-7 million. How many countries have it destroyed in the name of democracy?

        I do think all East Asians should unite and fight a preemptive war against the US before they destroys the world. I arrive at the conclusion based on the waywardness of white people and well established facts that I highlighted above.

      99. @Jeff Stryker

        Yep in the USA the 90s were the last good time. Everything just seemed so easy. Start a business, get a place to live, own a car, etc. It wasn’t the tightrope act over a yawning chasm of homelessness, violence, and despair that life in the US is now.

      100. @Anon

        The whole thing you say (especially the part “you don’t like”) should be applied to you not me.

        I have listened the whole pro-China argument, and they are nonsense in many level. I have represented the evidence from what I actually heard from Vietnamese veterans, my own knowledge on Vietnamese history.

        You want me to learn my own history from foreign history class, China record on Vietnam History? What a joke you are! I know my Vietnamese history has some or many nonsense too but Vietnamese history on Vietnam is at least still more reliable than the foreign ones because major of the event is records from what my ancestor know, not from the conspiracy “France brainwashed Vietnamese to hate Chinese” like many pro-China (and Sinophilia) here to believe. Vietnam history is written by Vietnamese only, that the fact.

        I may be a kid but you are kid in adult body.

      101. @Chinaman

        I am in fact also a race realist too but the race realist is not reliable in many cases.

        From my own experience, ideology, culture, education have big impact than the race thing.

        I afraid that in the political situation right now, Asian cannot unite to fight the AngloZionism.

        Right now, I just pray to heaven and earth there will be no war.

        By the way, I really angry and pissed off at the so-called Vietnamese history revision (the pro-US one) try to whitewash US war crimes and their allies like South Korean from Vietnamese history in many bizarre ways.

        • Replies: @Chinaman
      102. @Chinaman

        WWII was kind of unusual in that it involved the Japanese and to some extent the Chinese. Usually the white people were perfectly happy killing each other off, with wars with names like the 20-years’ war, the 40-years’ war, and I believe there was one called the 200-year war. Even the US civil war hardly involved black people in the fighting as the whities were far too happy killing each other.

        What whites do against other races, Asians included, are more like genocides than wars. Just take what the US did to Viet Nam for example. Little bombs specifically designed to look like toys so children would pick them up and get killed. Agent Orange, designed to kill all plants, weeds and crops and everything. Extensive carpet bombing. Yeah the Allies carpet bombed Germany but it was cities where it was understood that the Germans had manufacturing capabilities etc. In Viet Nam the idea was to utterly depopulate the countryside and the most rural podunk little farming areas got carpet bombed. And you can just imagine the gloating in the boardrooms in the US, and the clever engineers with those big pads of paper on easels and a pointer, pointing out the latest features of their bombs that look like toys and the roaring applause…

        So yeah, banding up and a pre-emptive war against the US is probably a pretty good idea. I can’t say I’m overjoyed at the prospect (you guys will win) but it won’t be like we didn’t have it coming.

        • Replies: @Chinaman
        , @Poco
      103. @utu

        Oh so much this. Viets and Cambodians don’t look the same, their languages are very, very different, cuisine, everything. Yet at least in the US they’re friends tight as glue and my Cambodian co-workers told me it’s because of this. The Viets were like angels, coming in and stopping Pol Pot and saving the Cambodians’ lives.

      104. Chinaman says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        Yes, I am dreaming of course….but it is actually common sense as another poster puts it.

        But until someone comes out in public and actually suggest such a “ludicrous” idea, there will absolutely no chance it will EVER happen. It is mind boggling to me that no one can see it is in all our common interest to unite against the West. Asian Americans actually gets it and form a clique since they know whites don’t distinguish between them. We are little yellow men to them.

        Koreans have seen what Americans were capable of in Korea, a million Chinese died to defend korea.( South Korea is an American base)

        Japan got nuked.

        Vietnam suffered the most actually.

        Now, China.

        The only reason China proper have not been invaded is because it have a few nukes of its own.

        Don’t people see where this is going?

        If oil runs out tomorrow or the global economy collapse, there will be an Asian genocide immediately. There won’t be good Vietnamese or bad Chinese, the only good Asians will be the dead ones.

      105. Chinaman says:
        @alex in San Jose AKA Digital Detroit

        Thank you for your candor. At least the 2 of us have no illusion where this is going. while Vietnamese Japanese, and Chinese squabble over trivial differences that happen 100 years ago. Hilter was a Anglophile and forbid the bombing of London until Churchill bombed Berlin indiscriminately.

        So the “most evil man in history” still cared about civilians that are of his own race. It is common sense.

        But the “good guys”, the Americans, showed no such leniency for Vietnam and North Korea where 20% of the population got wiped out from bombing of civilian targets. Genocidal as you said. What scares me is that the American public support such wars and is indifferent to the loss of life.

        This will not end well for Asians and future historians will question why they didn’t form a security pact like NATO during this crucial period to protect themselves.

        • Replies: @anon
        , @antibeast
      106. Ron Unz says:
        @AnotherAnon1234

        Assuming the virus is engineered (as I do), I think accidental release is the most likely explanation.

        Okay, so you say it’s a Chinese bioweapon, accidentally released by the extremely careless Chinese…

        You also say it was *totally*coincidental that they accidentally released it just before Lunar New Year, the most absolutely disastrous time they could have done so. Okay.

        You also say it was *totally* coincidental that they accidentally released it in Wuhan, just after 300 American military service members had visited that city. Okay.

        Interestingly enough, the US has apparently spent many years working on exactly these sorts of viral bioweapons connected with bats:

        https://www.unz.com/wwebb/bats-gene-editing-and-bioweapons-recent-darpa-experiments-raise-concerns-amid-coronavirus-outbreak/

        You also say you’re a longtime reader of this website—certainly not a paid agent!—but had never previously left a comment, until you suddenly felt it your moral duty to persuade everyone here that the dastardly (but highly incompetent) Chinese had suddenly attacked themselves with their own deadly bioweapon. And by purest coincidence, Neocon Republican Sen. Tom Cotton had suggested pretty much the same thing just a couple of days ago.

        Well, maybe, maybe not. But these seem like an awful lot of coincidences piled on top of each other…

        • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
      107. anon[837] • Disclaimer says:
        @Chinaman

        I almost feel like Asians are a lost cause. Asians have such a deeply engrained inferiority complex that they will never unite as one. Imperial Japan was the last chance at Asian unity.

        • Replies: @Poco
      108. Polemos says:
        @Ron Unz

        Regarding the military games, what other militaries were in attendance during that time period, and of those, which also have BSL-4s investigating (and/or publishing research) coronaviruses?

        You’ve got a good point, but we all get tunnels to our vision too soon.

      109. @Ron Unz

        You also say you’re a longtime reader of this website—certainly not a paid agent!—but had never previously left a comment, until you suddenly felt it your moral duty to persuade everyone here that the dastardly (but highly incompetent) Chinese had suddenly attacked themselves with their own deadly bioweapon. And by purest coincidence, Neocon Republican Sen. Tom Cotton had suggested pretty much the same thing just a couple of days ago.

        Remember when Osama Bin Laden was supposedly “killed” back in 2011? A new poster named “Wes” suddenly showed up and started cautioning against “conspiracy theories.” It was certainly interesting.

        • Replies: @Ron Unz
        , @utu
      110. Ron Unz says:
        @JohnnyWalker123

        Remember when Osama Bin Laden was supposedly “killed” back in 2011? A new poster named “Wes” suddenly showed up and started cautioning against “conspiracy theories.” It was certainly interesting.

        Exactly! And it’s very nice that I’m not the only person who remembers the sudden appearance (and rapid disappearance) of that “Wes” fellow…

        • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
      111. utu says:
        @JohnnyWalker123

        Should check what CanSpeccy’s opinion was on 2011 Osama’s assassination.

      112. @Ron Unz

        Well, you remember correctly.

        “Wes” seemed awfully obsessed with fighting back against “conspiracy theories” that surrounded the assassination of Osama Bin Laden.

        https://www.unz.com/isteve/why-didnt-bin-laden-have-gun/

        Look, if this is all a big bad conspiracy and Bin Laden wasn’t really killed, then why not have an actor play the part of Bin Laden and capture him? Why not have someone go on trial, talk about how he hates us for our freedoms, and then have a fake execution? You conspiracy nuts get so wrapped up in your own BS that you miss the obvious.

        I am reminded of that guy on King of the Hill that believed in NWO helicopters, but didn’t notice his own son didn’t look like him.

        Well there was a little thing called an election between the death of the Hussein boys and OBL. Is it really so unbelievable that Barrack Hussein Obama and the people around him want to show hyper-sensitivity to Islam? They clearly want to show they are more understanding of it then Bush was.

        Basically, any set of facts will be seen by those who want to see a conspiracy, as a conspiracy. There is absolutely no stream of events that conspiracy theorists wouldn’t find a thousand problems with.

        I would repeat the line that Cochran said … if they are so clever at stagecraft and so good at keeping secrets, why didn’t they at least fake some Weapons of Mass Destruction? That would have been very easy for them to “find”.

        I think it is more painful to realize how dumb our rulers are then to see the truth … I’d rather believe I was ruled by high IQ sociopaths then the morons that appear on my screen nightly.

        https://www.unz.com/isteve/capital-punishment/

        I wouldn’t make too much of the conflicting accounts of what happened. I had a car accident a few years ago, and out of 4 witnesses we had at least 5 stories. And that was just a fender bender.

        If Bin Laden had nothing to do with 9-11, he could have gotten that message out a thousand times through all sorts of venues. Michael Scheurer, who is deeply critical of Israel, believes Bin Laden and Al Qaeda exist and committed those crimes.

        I must disagree with the last poster on Sailer’s heroism. Being openly known as a promoter of Human BioDiversity is no cakewalk. Being politically incorrect in this day and age takes guts.

        I don’t understand why anyone wants to paint Osama as a heroic character by the way. Obviously, most human type people don’t, but here we have a poster that is offended that someone wanted Osama executed! Absolutely crazy.

        Is Conspiracy Talk more common these days? It seems like no one trusts anything. As someone who believed that the actions of the Trilateral Commission and other elite groups should be discussed, I find myself uncomfortable with the turn it has taken.

        Most of the theories I hear now sound borderline crazy. We seem to have a lot conspiracy theories that follow the Middle Eastern tropes. All the Truther stuff, all the FEMA death camps, etc., it is all so low IQ it taints any real critique of the powerful.

        Is this due to the internet empowering these people or is this the kind of mutual mistrust that grows up in a multiethnic society? If so, I don’t like it.

        Anonymous, was it really necessary for me to offer a full and complete treatise on why I don’t like the spread of low IQ conspiracy theories? I’m not talking about reasonable questions. As I stated in my post, I have always brought up things like the Trilateral Commission. But, no, I am not a fan of the Omnipotent Secret Rulers school of thought, or the view that conspiracies are the most fundamental force in history.

        And I know full well the difference between a skeptic and a crank and it is legitimate. But I see the dumbing down of the questioning of authority to the point that it is laughable in too many areas. But maybe Truthers are just loud.

        Are you serious that you see no benefit to the execution of Bin Laden? That’s an idiosyncratic viewpoint to say the least.

        Anyway, it seems true that there was little resistance and he was basically executed. 3 out of 4 were unarmed. That’s fine with me, but it actually makes me wonder if things are less manipulated by the gov’t and media than they were 50 years ago.

        I would imagine that back in WWII, they would have created a more colorful image for propaganda purposes and the press would never have questioned it. Take that conspiracy buff!

        https://www.unz.com/isteve/our-man-in-islamabad-and-kabul-too/

        Well I just hope you don’t fall for the “official” story, Steve. Only fools fall for the official story put out by the US government. Real smarties fall for the official stories put out by Iran and Pakistan. Can someone please explain how it is smart to disbelief every last thing the US gov’t says and yet believe every half-baked conspiracy theory bubbling out of AbuDhabi? Yes I’m ranting, sorry.

        What bothers me is the rise of conspiracy theories that don’t make any sense and are more of a knee-jerk reaction than a careful analysis.

        And I see some of these “cranks” falling for the goofiest conspiracy theories around. It is not sophisticated to abandon the US gov’t only to embrace Alex Jones, Jesse Ventura and David Ickes.

        But maybe this stuff has always been around. Or maybe this is what happens in multi-ethnic societies.

        Oh wow, I really didn’t read your whole post, Anonymous. It isn’t “status anxiety”. After all, we are all freaking anonymous here – except for Steve and maybe a few others. Please drop the psychoanalysis. I can entertain any thought and do … I am honestly telling you after spending some time on it … Truthers are batshizzle crazy. So, I’m just wondering if this element has always been around in such numbers. I guess the JFK freaks have been at it for 40+ years, so nothing new under the sun.

        https://www.unz.com/isteve/shallow-state/

        Felix, I think we would all be surprised at how often low IQ people have risen in politics and wielded real power.

        https://www.unz.com/isteve/iraq-wmd-non-hoax/

        This, by the way, is a big argument against the more extreme Truther positions. If you know you are about to frame someone, any cop would carry a throw down gun. How could the people who supposedly planted bombs on buildings and killed 3,000 of their fellow Americans on 9-11 in a “false flag” operation, then fail to do something as minor as plant a few WMDs, which is much simpler.

        https://www.unz.com/isteve/assassination-corollary-to-peak-state/

        It is rather disturbing that people are giving more credence to the American and European press than the Pakistani media.

        Pakistan has a long history of free speech and free inquiry going back centuries. Truth be told, most our our Constitution was actually stolen from the enlightened Pakistani intellectuals. With a literacy rate approaching 50%, I would certainly give Pakistani public opinion it’s due weight.

        RKU and whoever else … are you really paranoid enough to think the government cares about any of these off the radar websites and pays people to take sides on issues in this forum? I guess the world has it’s share of RKUs but this is astoundingly stupid.

        I use a name so that I can be identified because it is easier if someone wants to respond to my post, but I have posted here off and on for a couple of years. In fact, I have used the name Wes before.

        I guess this stems from me questioning Truthers – a group whose sensitivity is only matched by their irrelevance. And I find the paranoid personality interesting I suppose so I made some inquiries. Didn’t occur to you I could just post as “anonymous” or use different names if I was working for the KGB?

        Ahhh, but I sense my answer only goes to prove how clearly I am in government pay.

        https://www.unz.com/isteve/from-slate-their-fates-were-sealed/

        I would say that people forfeit the right to a sporting chance at some point. Like after killing 3,000 innocent Americans – not much sporting chance was given to them. It’s like a roach … I have stepped right on their backs before, didn’t even think of letting them have a fair fight.

        https://www.unz.com/isteve/finally-law-order-case-in-real-life/

        Exactly right. I’ve been watching some crime shows recently on TV … apparently black men are almost always our saviors and white men are devils … the more white, the more demonic.

        It’s interesting to note this can be so widespread in the media without requiring a “conspiracy”. It is just the shared sensibilities of a Leftist writers, producers and actors at work. In that sense, it is more dangerous than a conspiracy.

        Certainly an “interesting” character.

        Over the years, I’ve seen a handful of posters like him. They seem obsessed with protecting the establishment narrative and fighting against “conspiracy theories.” They also come across as very level-headed, polite, and well-informed. Other than their ridiculing of “conspiracy theories,” they’re usually very willing to go along with the other views expressed on this site (pro-HBD, anti-immigration, White nationalism, support for conservative policies).

        “Art Deco” comes to mind. As does “Whiskey.” There are others too, who often post under “Anonymous.”

        I would assume that these posters are apart of some type of CIA/Hasbara disinformation unit. Anytime our ruling class get nervous about something, they send out the CIA/Hasbara to provide their own narrative.

        They probably have a list of sites and individuals who are under monitoring. They’re probably keeping these intel files in some type of ADL facility.

        I’m sure you are on their list.

        • Replies: @UK
      113. antibeast says:
        @Chinaman

        This will not end well for Asians and future historians will question why they didn’t form a security pact like NATO during this crucial period to protect themselves.

        Ever heard of the SCO? It’s the Shanghai Cooperation Organization which groups together Asian countries. Not exactly a military alliance like NATO, but the SCO functions more as a pan-Asian geo-political and security umbrella.

      114. d dan says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        “Vietnam and China try to use and back-stab each other so much… China worked with US to divided Vietnam into North and South like what they had done to Korea.”

        I am not sure you understand completely my previous post. So, let me rephrase that from China’s point of view in detail for you:

        1. A unified Vietnam let by communist party was the best for China, because it would be friendly (at least that was what they believed about communist nations in 1950s).

        2. A divided Vietnam was bad because there would be war, conflicts and it drained resources from China. Further, it invited intervention from US and the West.

        3. However, Vietnamese was no match to US military power. Vietnam was lucky in Dien Bien Phu because of incompetent French general. Vietnamese was too arrogant, under estimated US and over estimated their own capability.

        4. Americans were extremely ruthless when they were attacked and vengeful when losing. Look at how they fire bombed Tokyo after Pearl Harbor, (not to mentioned the atomic bombs). They threatened to drop atomic bombs on Korea and China cities when losing in Korea War. If there was an all-out-war with US, Vietnam and China could be the second and third country to received atomic bombs.

        5. China didn’t have atomic bomb to deter US in Vietnam.

        6. Soviet could not be counted. They didn’t do much in Korea War because they didn’t want to risk nuclear war with US. Same reasoning supported that they were unlikely to fight US for Vietnam.

        7. A temporary partitioning of Vietnam would prevent unification, but it would also ensure the survival of Ho and communist party in the North. Korea War showed that US was capable of over running a country. So the advantage was both ways.

        8. A free election was promised. Ho was popular. It was the best path for unification.

        Subsequent events showed the consistency of this interpretation. China continued to help Vietnam to unify throughout 1960s and 1970s, providing aids even though China was extremely poor and suffering famines that killed a lot of its own people.

        “Vietnam never had any plan to invade the whole East Asian. “

        But Vietnam DID invade Cambodia. So it was hard for outsiders to gauge Vietnamese true intention at that time.

        “does not mean China does not have any plan to invade Vietnam.”

        It is a plain lie to suggest China had territorial ambition against Vietnam. You can look at China’s behavior before and after. After Korea War, China withdrew all its force even though US was still in Korea and posted a threat. After the war with India in 1962, China could hold onto all disputed areas. Instead, China withdrew. After the war with Vietnam in 1979, it could hold on to a strip of border as buffer with Vietnam, but again, it withdrew. In contrast, US stayed in Korea until today, just like what they do in Japan – once occupied, they never withdraw (even today, like in Europe, in Iraq and others). Same for Soviet, they occupied East European countries after WW2 and stayed there.

        So, on top of these historical evidences, you want people to believe Vietnam did not have territorial ambition against other SE Asian countries, but you refuse to accept the same for China? What a way to reconcile.

      115. @d dan

        I don’t think you truly understand what I explain:

        1 and 2: Do you any actually proof to prove that China want a Unified Vietnam? Because China say so? Do you see what China had done to Korea? Do you know anything about the Ping Pong Dimplomacy? I already give you the CIA documents and the interview of Le Kien Trung, son of Le Duan, and the interview had confirmed indirectly that the CIA document “Comrade B” is true and to help you understand the true nature of the Vietnam-China relationship during the cold war. Do you China was the one agree and approve the Existence of South Vietnamese Government and divide Vietnam into North and South during in 1954 at the 17th parallel north at the 1954 Genera Conference. According to what I know from the CIA document “Comrade B” or the translation of Le Duan diary (if I use the word correctly) correctly, China never want an Unified Vietnam, Mao Zedong said he helped Vietnam to be united in both North and South but with the attitude like this “keep resting, no need to rush”, “Unity process will take about 10 years or even 100 years”, or anything like that to prevent Vietnam to be united again. Do you know that in the April 28th, 1975, Francois Vanussème also suggest Duong Van Minh, the last president of South Vietnam, should asked China for help but Duong Van Minh refused, this is just from our Vietnamese book ” Nguyễn Hữu Thái. Hồi ức “Dương Văn Minh và tôi” năm 2008″ (Memoir of Duong Van Minh and me, by Nguyen Huu Thai, 2008).

        3. The Vietnamese army during this time knew their own limited and they are not arrogant. This is the big victory of our army. There will be no lucky in the battle, the losers always don’t have right to complain to the Victory and this is fault of the general for being stupid.

        4-5. You are right and wrong at the same time. Cold War is not WW2 and US cannot dropped nuclear bomb so easily because they could accidentally declare war with Soviet Union. Do you know that Operation Linebacker II possible brought more disaster to Hanoi than the nuclear bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? From what I know it is true (I could be wrong, of course). What China had done to Vietnam was nothing to do with having or not having nuclear bomb.

        6. Pretty reasonable but not reasonable when Soviet Union was ruled by the immoral and treason Nikita Khrushchev.

        7. We Vietnamese cannot make the big mistake like Korea. From what I observe on Korea, divide into North and South is not temporary, and we survive and successful liberated South Vietnam. Do you know the peaceful making between North and South Korea in the last years is something China never want and angry so much?

        8. Promise is just promise, from our Vietnamese history, no actually action.

        China helped Vietnam is just a Foie gras to keep North Vietnam. Since the Ping Pong diplomacy in 1973, China had stopped aid Vietnam but China just supported Vietnam again in 1973 when South Vietnamese began to fight back with the remain US weapon because China just wanted to keep North Vietnam survive only.

        I told you before, Vietnam invaded Cambodia because Cambodia invaded Vietnam FIRST in 1976 and Vietnam could not survive in the between two hostile countries, China and Cambodia, you didn’t actually read what I said before. This is not Vietnam fault for ASEAN fear, this is the fault of someone who make the fear monger. I had send you the linked of “Conical Hat” from The Saker to help you understand more from Vietnamese perspective but you just keep using Chinese propaganda.

        It is a plain lie to suggest China had territorial ambition against Vietnam. You can look at China’s behavior before and after. After Korea War, China withdrew all its force even though US was still in Korea and posted a threat. After the war with India in 1962, China could hold onto all disputed areas. Instead, China withdrew. After the war with Vietnam in 1979, it could hold on to a strip of border as buffer with Vietnam, but again, it withdrew. In contrast, US stayed in Korea until today, just like what they do in Japan – once occupied, they never withdraw (even today, like in Europe, in Iraq and others). Same for Soviet, they occupied East European countries after WW2 and stayed there.

        So, on top of these historical evidences, you want people to believe Vietnam did not have territorial ambition against other SE Asian countries, but you refuse to accept the same for China? What a way to reconcile.

        China withdrew its force from Korea because they had made deal with the US, the deal that put China interest first and the deal also put US interest first, and US same to China know their own limits. If China truly wanted to help Korea, same to Vietnam, then China should not have the “crooked” behavior like that. I’m so sorry, the reason China cannot invaded Vietnam is because Chinese soldiers fighting ability was very low quality, Chinese “human sea” tactics caused many soldier died for nothing, Chinese soldier was killed than Vietnamese soldiers and the Vietnamese soldiers was not actually soldiers but the local militia, whose fighting was possible worse than Vietnamese actually soldier who was overthrowing Pol Pot, and they killed so many Chinese soldiers with their own intelligence ability (I hope I use the word right). The Soviet Union also pissed off about this, Vietnam had successfully shown the International China war crime again Vietnam, China known that they could not save Pol Pot due to Soviet and international pressure, they lost so much soldiers (let say that if 1 Vietnamese died then 3-5 Chinese died).

        I told you before, Vietnam had suffered so much from the constantly war during the 20th century and Vietnam just wanted peace soon as possible. Do you know that in 1976, Vietnam had sent a peaceful and normalization letter to US president Jimmy Carter but the China pressure US not to make peaceful with Vietnam.

        I suggest you should stop reading Chinese propaganda and you should ask and read what Vietnamese actually think so you can gain more balance view point.

        Your view point is truly one side, I afraid.

        • Replies: @d dan
      116. Poco says:
        @alex in San Jose AKA Digital Detroit

        There won’t be any defeating of the US on US soil by military means minus a nuclear attack. In that eventuality no one wins. How are you going to invade the US with a military? The US will only be subverted from within. As has already occurred 3 or 4 times.

      117. Poco says:
        @anon

        Yeah, if China had just united with Japan while Japan raped their country they could have all lived happily ever after. You cretins are a laugh.

      118. @Poco

        Yep head to head it would be difficult. But through money-power, no problem. That’s how the USSR was defeated. That’s how many a country has been overthrown since the Bomb.

        I honestly see a sort of “Eurasian” culture in the cities and out in the really nubbly hinterlands, equally nubbly people who won’t be conquered and like afghan hill tribes, will be happy enough up in their “hollers” as long as they’re left alone.

      119. d dan says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        Your lack of understanding of historical perspective is stunning. For example, I already explain to you the reasoning why China preferred a unified Vietnam. But you still believe China preferred a divided Vietnam with US troops, warships and airplanes circling around China. You believe Vietnam could take on a superpower and won unification in a few years? You think waiting one or two decades was unreasonable from Chinese point of view?(hint: how many decades did Mao waited to defeat Chiang?) You think China made a deal with US because it preferred a divided Korea, rather than because China couldn’t expel US? You think Vietnam could take on US in the 1950s because they had a “big” victory against France? You think there is no possibility of US using atomic bombs or other WMD (includes agent orange, of course) in the 1950s? You think even if there was a chance of peaceful reunification through election, Ho should not give it a try? You believe Vietnam finally “defeat” US in the 1970, rather than US defeated itself? You think ASEAN believed Cambodia, a weaker nation, wanted to destroy Vietnam? Even if it was true that Cambodia started the attack, you think ASEAN believed Vietnam had the right to invade Cambodia. You think China was strong enough to capture land from US (in Korea), from India and from Vietnam, and yet was so weak they couldn’t hold onto the land if they wanted?

        And finally, of course, your biggest illusion: you believe China wanted to invade Vietnam for territorial gain.

        “Your view point is truly one side, I afraid.”

        FYI: I didn’t read only Chinese version of history. I never studied or live in China in my lifetime except as tourist or for short business trips.

      120. @d dan

        I can keeping like this forever and I am really patient.

        I already explained to what Vietnamese leaders (communism one) know about the true agenda of China to Vietnam during the resistance war again US. Your explain on why China preferred on United Vietnam is nonsense because from what I and my elder understand on China, China never wanted to an united Vietnam because united Vietnam was not good for China, I told you many stories I heard on “how China use Vietnam”, I give you some or many examples from Vietnamese true record. Look again, China already had something spooky with the US on dividing Korea into North and South, and this is reason why I cannot trust China. I gave you what Mao Zedong actually said from our Vietnamese records and the part “Unity of Vietnam must be 100 years or more” etc. is true, no make up. I read Vietnamese history record especially the book “The Trust On Vietnam-China Relationship in 30 years” that is published in April 1979,
        (https://sachhiem.net/LICHSU/NXB_ST/NXBSuThat.php).

        If you think there is possible US can us atomic bomb, can you prove that for me? You just concentrate so much on brute force and ignore many things like personality and traits, political, social and anything more. Atomic Bomb is not Orange WMD, how can you make a comparison like that? If I am US leaders, I will prefer using the weapon that less destruction on land and resources but also more destruction on human being, easy to fix, easy to use on loopholes on law, and easy to lies. Do you know that before using orange weapon? US had to lie to their own soldier and South Vietnamese that the Orange WMD was not harmful to human and it just kill only weeds? Think again, if US can use the atomic so easily then there will not have the “Israel Control US and Western” right now. You had to understand, Vietnam defeated US was not just only in battlefield but also in Paris and Washington in politically. Yes, Vietnam had defeated US.

        ASEAN believe or not believe Cambodia was weak or not weak was irrelevance and the thing does not have anything relative to the fact. If you truly think what ASEAN believe was true during that time then you should believe the 9-11 was planned by Osama Bin Laden like people around the world even Vietnamese, not Americans only. Do you know that Pol Pot got the support on China? I don’t think you know.

        To be fair, let me tell you one thing: I also don’t believe Ho Chi Minh was Lenin’s student like he claim. Why? Because Ho Chi Minh is a great hero and a great hero like him cannot accept the racist tyrant like Lenin to become his teacher. Ho Chi Minh might lied about this to for his “resume” and maintain relationship with Soviet Union. Majority of Vietnamese still believed Lenin is good guys, does it means that “Lenin is good guy” is true? of course not! This is an example to help you understand that majority believe on one thing does not mean that one thing is true.

        I’m so sorry, even what you read is not from China propaganda but I believe what you read is still very one side to China. Unlike Vietnam, China had many access into international since the 1980s so they could spend more times to translated many Chinese history (white wash version of course) into other languages and people, especially the anti-imperialism one, will become pro-China and worship China like a god with no critical thinking and this is what is happening right now. Do you ever see any Vietnamese history books that is written by Vietnamese (I mean by the currently Vietnam right now, not by the so-called Republic of Vietnam remains) are translated into English and other languages come to the hand of foreigner to help them understand more about Vietnamese History? I don’t think so. The problem whenever you read the Vietnam history, most of them is not written by local ones but is written by the anti-communism Vietnamese, who are liars that try to discredit Vietnam in many bizarre ways because communism, and foreigner, who don’t understand the Vietnamese mental, try to be neutral as much as they can, and they don’t know that sometimes bias viewpoints is more true than neutral view points.

        • Replies: @d dan
      121. d dan says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        “I can keeping like this forever and I am really patient.”

        LOL. You seem to believe whoever repeats something more often wins a debate.

        “China never wanted to an united Vietnam because united Vietnam was not good for China”

        You keep claiming that but still didn’t explain why? I already explained to you why a divided Vietnam is bad for China.

        “I told you many stories I heard”

        You seem to confuse heresay with credible source.

        “I gave you what Mao Zedong actually said from our Vietnamese records and the part “Unity of Vietnam must be 100 years or more””

        And why is it important? That didn’t prove Mao prefer a divided Vietnam. China still has not unified with Taiwan. And China waited over 150 years to take back Hong Kong and Macao, does that prove Mao preferred a divided China too?

        “[about atomic bomb] You … ignore many things like personality and traits, political, social and anything more.”

        You don’t even realize you are arguing using hindsight, do you? You are talking as if that in the 1950s, Zhou and Mao should know who the future US Presidents would be, and able to know their personality, traits. And they should definitely know none will use atomic bomb, and what US would or would not do…

        “Yes, Vietnam had defeated US.”

        See, this is the part when I said Vietnamese were arrogant. Vietnam lost almost every major battles against US. If not because China provided a safe space for Ho, US could completely destroyed the communist party, probably in less than 1 year, just like they almost did in Korea.

        “ASEAN believe or not believe Cambodia was weak or not weak was irrelevance”

        The point here is to prove you lack the ability to look from another people’s perspective.

        “Do you know that Pol Pot got the support on China? I don’t think you know.”

        See how much you lack understanding of others.

        “so they could spend more times to translated many Chinese history (white wash version of course) into other languages and people”

        Wrong, again. Most of Chinese stories are still not translated into other langauges.

        “The problem whenever you read the Vietnam history, most of them is not written by local ones”

        True that I don’t read Vietnamese. But do you read Chinese?
        ——–

        I think your biggest problem is your lack of ability to sit in others’ shoe and see from other people’s views. By that I don’t just mean you lack understanding of my points (that is true), but you also lack understanding of China’s views (e.g. their historical perspectives) when you interpret historical events. And you lack understanding of ASEAN’s views, of US’ views, etc.

        I see that you have already make up your mind that China wanted a divided Vietnam and a divided Korea. I already laid out my argument against that and you can’t refute. And incredibly, you believe China prefers a divided Korea, even up to today (which I didn’t even bother to argue with you on this). I already explain to you that Vietnam was weak, and could easily be wiped out by US, and you never even acknowledge this inconvenient but the most important fact, let alone going a step further to analyze the consequences of different possibilities. You can’t imagine alternative scenarios, like peaceful unification (like what China did with HongKong/Macao and still trying to do with Taiwan). Instead you simply use hindsight to argue about what was possible. Finally, you imply (without proof nor argument) that China had some territorial ambition against Vietnam, a belief that is contrary to all known past and subsequent events.

        Your only plus is that you did provide us with many crackpot Vietnamese stories and details. They were depressingly distorted but eye-opening nevertheless.

      122. UK says:
        @JohnnyWalker123

        All of the polite and level-headed and well-informed people disagree with the kooky theories. I’m shocked!

      123. @d dan

        Your explain is nothing more than your own assumption. How can you know United Vietnam was benefited to China? Do you truly believe China Elites had enough courage to contradict themselves in front of their own people? If you say my Vietnamese stories is crackpots then I also say that ASEAN, China, US, and others fear monger on “Little Imperialism Vietnam” is crack pot too.

        I had explained to you about the situation of Vietnam during 1975-1979 to prove that Vietnam didn’t have intention, Polpot invaded Vietnam in 1976 so Vietnam invaded Cambodia to save their own skin. However, you keep being stuff in the “Weakness Cambodia cannot invaded Vietnam” or “ASEAN say so”, or anything like that. ASEAN viewpoint is nothing more than American believe “9-11 government official statement”.

        Why China and US prefer on divided Korea, same to Vietnam (I already explain before, you refused to understand this):

        https://www.scmp.com/comment/insight-opinion/united-states/article/2163525/china-and-us-invested-divided-korean-peninsula

        I don’t see we Vietnamese are arrogant. This our rightful proud. Vietnamese people with their own leaders had do anything they can, include trolling China (win the Back-stab contest more correctly).

        I also read the US view point and China viewpoint on China-Vietnam relationship from people like you in many anti-imperialism website especially The Saker and The Unz Review and none of them are reasonable.

        I had provided the interview of Le Kien Trung, son of Le Duan, the interview that accidentally confirm the CIA Document “Comrade B” or English translation of Le Duan notebook/diary correctly is true but you still refuse accept what Le Duan with the excuse “this is CIA stuff, it is fake”.

        I can’t read Chinese, of course but I at least don’t pretend to understand anything about China meanwhile you can’t read Vietnamese but you also pretend you understand Vietnam. How can you know that Vietnamese is right or wrong if you can’t speak with them.

        To be honest, I also often go to Chinese website like Sohu, I use google translate because I find our for some reason google translate from Chinese to Vietnamese is pretty accurate about 80%-90% for some reasons. I read some reports on this website about Vietnam-China to understand Chinese view points, and I find out that Chinese view is pretty humble and reasonable, also arrogant at the same time on the “China help Vietnam” stuffs. I said that Chinese put too much trust on their own government, no skeptical ability.

        To be honest, the whole thing you said above especially the part “Vietnamese stories is crackpot” is really ad-hominem to me and it is should be applied to you, not me. You begin to lose the argument so you decide to use the cherry picking tactics to misrepresent what I actually said about, you keep repeat the part I already refute, you keep says that “I don’t explain why China prefer divided Vietnam” meanwhile I already explain with what I heard. You accuse the Vietnamese soldiers I know is liar then I can accuse what people tell you is liar too.

        I’m so sorry but I cannot take your explain so seriously.

        • Replies: @d dan
      124. d dan says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        OK, let’s narrow this down a bit.

        “Why China and US prefer on divided Korea, same to Vietnam (I already explain before, you refused to understand this)”

        Try explain that again: why China prefers a divided Vietnam (leave aside Korea for now, because I know you can’t explain that, and let’s not confuse too many issues). I read your link to scmp and re-read your past comments. I couldn’t find any single argument. CIA Document and Le Kien Trung interview are allegation, they are not even evidence. I don’t even need to call them liar. They are not explanation of why China wanted a divided Vietnam.

        Let me help you with an analogy. If A accuses B of murder, that is an allegation. That is what CIA doc and the interview provide. If A shows a knife with B’s finger print, and the knife matches the wound in the victim’s body, then that is evidence. If A shows the victim has a million-dollar life insurance where B is the beneficiary, then that is an explanation. That is called motive.

        Since you are the one who is accusing China of backstabbing, you need to provide ALL the above. You are still far away to reach that stage.

        I, on the other hand, has provided you with explanation why B is not a murderer because if the victim is alive, he can actually (for example) make million for B. So B is unlikely a murderer. I can provide you with links of speech over speech (in Chinese) of Mao, Zhou, Deng, Liu on why they all supported Vietnam reunification, but I am sure you will call them liars.

        So, it all boils down to who has the best explanations, in terms of motive, logical reasoning, international perspective, and supported by past and subsequent events. A he-say she-say contest will not make anyone wiser.

        I also explain to you that a temporary division will provide sanctuary, a safe space, for the Vietnamese communist party to build up its military and organization. From China’s point of view, it helped Vietnam. From Vietnam point of view, it was a temporary setback to reunification, but a good assurance of survival. From US point of view, it was a bad deal because it prevented them to eliminate threat while they still had the upper hand. I heard people from the Chinese, the Vietnamese and the US sides, they all confirmed those were reasonable views from their respective sides. I am confident that objective readers will find this paragraph reasonable too.

        You, however, are the only one who think it was a bad deal for Vietnam, and therefore it was proof that China wanted to divide Vietnam, and wanted to do it permanently (without proof nor explanation, of course).

      125. Let talk about and Le Kien Trung and “Comrade B” First:

        My point here that Le Kien Trung interview with VN Sputniks had indirectly confirmed the CIA document “Comrade B” or English translation of Le Duan notebook/diary is true. I tell you review the CIA document to understand the true nature of China-Vietnam relationship during the Resistance War again US, not a beautiful picture like many people claim. The problem is that you also cannot prove that the CIA document “Comrade B” is false, I mean you had to prove that by “Summoning Le Duan from after world” to check the “Comrade B” is true or not, not by saying that it is not fitted what you know or it is CIA document.

        I told you before the people I know tell the story about China want to divide Vietnam into North and South and the true agenda behind “Chinese Foie Gras” are Vietnamese veterans. You can review more to understand China crook behaviors:

        http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~lorenzo/Jian%20China%20Involvement%20Vietnam.pdf

        I will quote some paragraph from the book to help you understand:

        The Geneva agreement on Indo-China of 1954 concluded the First
        Indo-China War, but failed to end military conflicts in South-East Asia. When it became clear that a peaceful reunification through the plebiscite scheduled for 1956 would be indefinitely blocked by Washington and the government in Saigon, the Vietnamese Communist leadership decided in 1959-60 to resume “armed resistance” in the South.3] Policy makers in Washington, perceiving that the battles in South Vietnam and other parts of South-East Asia (especially in Laos) represented a crucial contest against further Communist expansion, continuously increased America’s military involvement there. Consequently, the Second Indo-China War intensified.

        Beijing was a main patron, as well as a beneficiary, of the Geneva Agreement of 1954. Chinese policy toward the settlement of the First Indo-China War reflected its strategic considerations at that time, which included the desire to focus on domestic problems after the end of the Korean War, the precautions against possible American military intervention in the Indo-China area, thus preventing another direct Sino-American confrontation, and the need to establish a new international image to correspond with its new claims of peaceful co-existence.

        Under the influence of these considerations, the Beijing leadership neither hindered nor encouraged Hanoi’s efforts to “liberate” the South by military means until 1962. After the signing of the Geneva agreement, the leaders in Beijing seemed more willing than their comrades in Hanoi to accept the fact that Vietnam would be indefinitely divided. In several exchanges of opinions between top Beijing and Hanoi leaders in 1955-56, the basic tone of the Chinese advice was that the urgent task facing the Vietnamese Communists was how to consolidate the revolutionary achievements in the North. In December 1955, Beijing’s Defence and Foreign Affairs Ministries decided that the Chinese Military Advisory Group, which had been in Vietnam since July 1950, would be called back to China. Peng Dehuai, China’s Defence Minister, informed his Vietnamese counterpart, Vo Nguyen Giap, of this decision on 24 December 1955, and all members of the group had returned to China by mid-March

        Next, why China preferred divided Vietnam. Before I explain again, I have to tell you that your explanation on the “temporary” divide is nothing more than theory, not fact. I will simplify the content from the link: “https://sachhiem.net/LICHSU/NXB_ST/NXBSuThat_1.php” (You don’t believe you can spend more time to use google translate)

        China wanted Vietnam to become their own vassal state, that depend on them completely in may way. The main point here China never want to an independent and unity Vietnam because weak and a divided Vietnam (North Vietnam only) will not have any choice to do anything for itself, and North Vietnam must follow the order from China. If Vietnam is united, then Vietnam had many chance to become a powerful country that good enough to not depended on any others country, and Chinese elites want Vietnam remain weak and depended on China as vassal stated by dividing Vietnam, and China just supported North Vietnam to keep North Vietnam alive. Look again the North Korea and South Korea, you will see what I mean.

        Vietnam is a very important and sensitive location that is very important for military invasion on the whole South East Asia, according to the book “The Trust About China-Vietnam Relationship During 30 Years”. Controlling Vietnam is the first step to invade and control entire South East Asia. A unite and strong Vietnam will never let China borrow their own country to become a road for military invasion on South East Asia countries. Mao Zedong had Great Han Ideology so he wanted invaded the whole East Asia and South East Asia so China could have more power with more land, resources, and to become an empire. In the South East Asia countries, China had influenced the overseas with their own spies and turn them into 5th column army so the Chinese overseas can control and bend the South East Asia countries into Chinese vassal states on the economic. The 5th column army on economic is not good enough for China Empire plan, China want the whole South East Asia to become China territory with only Chinese only. That what you see from Le Duan conversation with Mao Zedong from “Comrade B”. China need to transferred their own people into other South East Asia countries so they can turn other locals into Chinese through the overpopulation and marriage. The problem here if Vietnam is united and Vietnam was the only road China could use for their future invasion into other countries, so Vietnam of course cannot let China do it. North Vietnam, weak and depended, cannot stop China so that why China preferred divided Vietnam.

        After the victory on Battle of Dien Bien Phu, Vietnam can claim the South Vietnam legally from China with the help of China, of course, at the Geneva 1954. However, China instead approve the existence of the Republic of Vietnam. China intended to leave France control South Vietnam because France could halved the involvement of US into South East Asia. China never want US involve into South Vietnam and this is their first intention. However, US kicked France out the South Vietnam so China let the US control South Vietnam with same the intention to control North Vietnam only. China used the imperialism power in hidden way (trolling more exactly) to weak the nationalism and patriotism spirit of the South East Asian countries meanwhile they influenced the overseas Chinese in South China Sea countries to become loyal to China mainland and the 5th column can bend the South East Asia countries into vassal states so easily, they want to control as much as they can in the slow speed meanwhile both US and Vietnam (Vietnamese actulally detected the 5th column, US did not), this is the same tactics that Zionism Israel are using on US and European, and Russia. This is reason why Le Duan had run notorious anti-China in Vietnam to force them out of Vietnam in 1979 and Le Duan had successfully destroyed the Chinese 5th column power in Vietnam meanwhile the Chinese 5th column power still visible in many South East Asia countries right now.

        You are right that “He say and She say” is not wiser but you also cannot prove that “He say and She say” is false too same to Lee Kuan Yew’s memoir.

      126. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        You really don’t get why it matters that the ROC made the original claim??? The western masters told Japan to give back those islands to the ROC as a result of the loss in WW2. Read the Treaty of Taipei. That pre-dates the the UNCLOS. It is also why the “other China” – the ROC – aka “Taiwan” still claims all of those islands today.
        That letter is noting that the PRC respected Vietnam’s 12 mile territory… It reduced the ROC’s 11 dash line as a favor to Vietnam. The most hilarious thing about people like yourself is while trying to castigate China – you completely ignore your own Vietnam makes almost the same claims in the South China Sea and since the 1970’s seized more land features in the Spratly’s than anyone else. It’s not even laughable – but mind boggling.

        The fact you call Lee Kwan Yew a liar but rely on “Vietnamese Veterans” says all I need to know. In any event – it wasn’t just him. But ok… You won’t be cured from delusion here and now – but hopefully one day.
        And actually Colin Powell tells a lot of truth. He’s even willing to admit now he disgraced his good name by lying to the UN on behalf of Bush’s team.
        If you read his autobiography – you might find interesting notes on the Vietnam War and how he realized early on it was a setup for failure.

      127. @Rollmop

        Exactly! The fact that those people who claim they live in free press and free societies have little clue of history… But just for the record it was an “11 Dash Line” when the US supported Chiang Kai Shek in getting back Taiping for starters. So it was even bigger back then – lol.
        Those that support Vietnam’s claims are even more peculiar. Vietnam not only started arming islands first – it also reclaimed the most land too… But you never hear in the Western media about Vietnam “building fake islands”.

      128. @showmethereal

        Thank you for pointing out where I got wrong, I had made very bad comparison Le Kuan Yew’s memoir to Colin Powell books. So I had to change my saying about Lee Kuan Yew’s Memoir:

        If you truly believe Lee Kuan Yew’s Memoir then you should believe US Hollywood propaganda, 9-11 official statements, Colin Powell’s “Chemical Tube”, or anything nonsense like that.

        You put the word into my mouth, I never said that Paracel and Spratly Islands are belong to Vietnam historically or legally, I know Vietnamese claim on the island is ridiculous is same Chinese claim. The reason why I approve Vietnam must play hard ball to China on South China Sea because China 9 or 11 dash line claim is very dangerous to national security on my country Vietnam and other countries too. Look again at the dash line, it is ridiculous and nonsense in many level.

        US approve China control on South China Sea not because they admit the sea belong to China legally but because US had lost the power on the South China Sea since the 2017. Political talk is cheap. When US had chances, they would turn the table. The approval is another proof to prove that China and US often ‘cheating on bed’ whenever they need.

        WW2 time is not today, the present time. What ROC had done in WW2 has nothing to do with Cold War and right now. The UNCLOS is irrelevance now.

        Do you actually read what I translated from Pham Van Dong Letter? The letter said that Vietnam will respected China 12 nautical miles, Not China respect Vietnam 12 nautical miles.

        You truly don’t understand the content of Pham Van Dong Letter or YOU ARE A LIAR!!!! You literally lie about the content of Pham Van Dong Letter. Pham Van Dong sent the letter to Zhou En Lai not Zhou En Lai sent the letter to Pham Van Dong.

        I will put here again to let you and others read Pham Van Dong Letter

        http://www.thanhniennews.com/politics/late-vietnam-pms-letter-gives-no-legal-basis-to-chinas-island-claim-26821.html

        Vietnamese:

        Thưa Đồng chí Tổng lý,

        Chúng tôi xin trân trọng báo tin để Đồng chí Tổng lý rõ:

        Chính phủ nước Việt Nam Dân chủ Cộng hòa ghi nhận và tán thành bản tuyên bố, ngày 4 tháng 9 năm 1958, của Chính phủ nước Cộng hòa Nhân dân Trung Hoa, quyết định về hải phận 12 hải lý của Trung Quốc.

        Chính phủ nước Việt Nam Dân chủ Cộng hòa tôn trọng quyết định ấy và sẽ chỉ thị cho các cơ quan Nhà nước có trách nhiệm triệt để tôn trọng hải phận 12 hải lý của Trung Quốc trong mọi quan hệ với nước Cộng hòa Nhân dân Trung Hoa trên mặt biển.

        Chúng tôi xin kính gửi Đồng chí Tổng lý lời chào rất trân trọng.

        Kính Gửi!

        Đồng Chí Chu Ân Lai. (At the bottom left of the letter)

        English:

        Dear Comrade Prime Minister,

        We would like to inform you that:

        The Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam has noted and supports the September 4, 1958 Declaration by the People’s Republic of China, regarding the 12 miles nautical territorial waters of China.

        The Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam respects this decision and will direct the proper government agencies to absolutely respect the 12 miles nautical territory of China in all dealings with the People’s Republic of China on the sea.

        We would like to send you our sincere regards.

        Respect Send!
        Comrade Zhou En Lai. (At the bottom left of the letter)

        The letter especially the “12 nautical miles territory water of China” does not even mean China will have the entire South China Sea.

        I will repeat here one again about Pham Van Dong’s letter, you truly don’t know or understand the content of Pham Van Dong letter to Zhou En Lai or you literally lie about the content of Pham Van Dong’s letter by changing the “Pham Van Dong send letter to Zhou En Lai” to “Zhou En Lai send letter to Pham Van Dong”.

        You accuse the Vietnamese Soldier who fought the Pol Pot and Chinese invader in 1979 and during 1980s was delusion and liar. This is very ad-hominem tactics of people who lose the argument. So I accuse the people who told you about the horror story “Little Imperial Vietnam” was delusional and liar too.

      129. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        I will post the picture of Pham Van Dong letter here again:

      130. Smith says:
        @Moi

        Well, because immediately after the americans left, the chinks invade, as they done hundreds of time before.

        Vietnam is a very pragmatic country.

        Also, the chinks love to say Vietnam “defeated” the US, but like d dan’s attitude, they will only say that Vietnam defeated the US because of China, thus Vietnam is owned by China for US defeat. They hide their arrogance even through victory congratulations.

        • Replies: @Commentator Mike
        , @ivan
      131. Moi says:

        I am a great admirer of China, its history and Confucian values. But China has its failings like every other country, but it is a superior culture compared to the US, as is India, Iran and few other countries. Sorry if that burns your ass.

      132. @Smith

        Smith,

        We get the same argument with many here claiming that the Soviets only defeated the Germans because of US help.

      133. @d dan

        Let talk about and Le Kien Trung and “Comrade B” First:

        My point here that Le Kien Trung interview with VN Sputniks had indirectly confirmed the CIA document “Comrade B” or English translation of Le Duan notebook/diary is true. I tell you review the CIA document to understand the true nature of China-Vietnam relationship during the Resistance War again US, not a beautiful picture like many people claim. The problem is that you also cannot prove that the CIA document “Comrade B” is false, I mean you had to prove that by “Summoning Le Duan from after world” to check the “Comrade B” is true or not, not by saying that it is not fitted what you know or it is CIA document.

        I told you before the people I know tell the story about China want to divide Vietnam into North and South and the true agenda behind “Chinese Foie Gras” are Vietnamese veterans. You can review more to understand China crook behaviors:

        http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~lorenzo/Jian%20China%20Involvement%20Vietnam.pdf

        I will quote some paragraph from the book to help you understand:

        The Geneva agreement on Indo-China of 1954 concluded the First
        Indo-China War, but failed to end military conflicts in South-East Asia. When it became clear that a peaceful reunification through the plebiscite scheduled for 1956 would be indefinitely blocked by Washington and the government in Saigon, the Vietnamese Communist leadership decided in 1959-60 to resume “armed resistance” in the South.3] Policy makers in Washington, perceiving that the battles in South Vietnam and other parts of South-East Asia (especially in Laos) represented a crucial contest against further Communist expansion, continuously increased America’s military involvement there. Consequently, the Second Indo-China War intensified.

        Beijing was a main patron, as well as a beneficiary, of the Geneva Agreement of 1954. Chinese policy toward the settlement of the First Indo-China War reflected its strategic considerations at that time, which included the desire to focus on domestic problems after the end of the Korean War, the precautions against possible American military intervention in the Indo-China area, thus preventing another direct Sino-American confrontation, and the need to establish a new international image to correspond with its new claims of peaceful co-existence.

        Under the influence of these considerations, the Beijing leadership neither hindered nor encouraged Hanoi’s efforts to “liberate” the South by military means until 1962. After the signing of the Geneva agreement, the leaders in Beijing seemed more willing than their comrades in Hanoi to accept the fact that Vietnam would be indefinitely divided. In several exchanges of opinions between top Beijing and Hanoi leaders in 1955-56, the basic tone of the Chinese advice was that the urgent task facing the Vietnamese Communists was how to consolidate the revolutionary achievements in the North. In December 1955, Beijing’s Defence and Foreign Affairs Ministries decided that the Chinese Military Advisory Group, which had been in Vietnam since July 1950, would be called back to China. Peng Dehuai, China’s Defence Minister, informed his Vietnamese counterpart, Vo Nguyen Giap, of this decision on 24 December 1955, and all members of the group had returned to China by mid-March.

        Next, why China preferred divided Vietnam. Before I explain again, I have to tell you that your explanation on the “temporary” divide is nothing more than theory, not fact. I will simplify the content from the link: “https://sachhiem.net/LICHSU/NXB_ST/NXBSuThat_1.php” (You don’t believe you can spend more time to use google translate)

        China wanted Vietnam to become their own vassal state, that depend on them completely in may way. The main point here China never want to an independent and unity Vietnam because weak and a divided Vietnam (North Vietnam only) will not have any choice to do anything for itself, and North Vietnam must follow the order from China. If Vietnam is united, then Vietnam had many chance to become a powerful country that good enough to not depended on any others country, and Chinese elites want Vietnam remain weak and depended on China as vassal stated by dividing Vietnam, and China just supported North Vietnam to keep North Vietnam alive. Look again the North Korea and South Korea, you will see what I mean.

        Vietnam is a very important and sensitive location that is very important for military invasion on the whole South East Asia, according to the book “The Trust About China-Vietnam Relationship During 30 Years”. Controlling Vietnam is the first step to invade and control entire South East Asia. A unite and strong Vietnam will never let China borrow their own country to become a road for military invasion on South East Asia countries. Mao Zedong had Great Han Ideology so he wanted invaded the whole East Asia and South East Asia so China could have more power with more land, resources, and to become an empire. In the South East Asia countries, China had influenced the overseas with their own spies and turn them into 5th column army so the Chinese overseas can control and bend the South East Asia countries into Chinese vassal states on the economic. The 5th column army on economic is not good enough for China Empire plan, China want the whole South East Asia to become China territory with only Chinese only. That what you see from Le Duan conversation with Mao Zedong from “Comrade B”. China need to transferred their own people into other South East Asia countries so they can turn other locals into Chinese through the overpopulation and marriage. The problem here if Vietnam is united and Vietnam was the only road China could use for their future invasion into other countries, so Vietnam of course cannot let China do it. North Vietnam, weak and depended, cannot stop China so that why China preferred divided Vietnam.

        After the victory on Battle of Dien Bien Phu, Vietnam can claim the South Vietnam legally from China with the help of China, of course, at the Geneva 1954. However, China instead approve the existence of the Republic of Vietnam. China intended to leave France control South Vietnam because France could halved the involvement of US into South East Asia. China never want US involve into South Vietnam and this is their first intention. However, US kicked France out the South Vietnam so China let the US control South Vietnam with same the intention to control North Vietnam only. China used the imperialism power in hidden way (trolling more exactly) to weak the nationalism and patriotism spirit of the South East Asian countries meanwhile they influenced the overseas Chinese in South China Sea countries to become loyal to China mainland and the 5th column can bend the South East Asia countries into vassal states so easily, they want to control as much as they can in the slow speed meanwhile both US and Vietnam (Vietnamese actulally detected the 5th column, US did not), this is the same tactics that Zionism Israel are using on US and European, and Russia. This is reason why Le Duan had run notorious anti-China in Vietnam to force them out of Vietnam in 1979 and Le Duan had successfully destroyed the Chinese 5th column power in Vietnam meanwhile the Chinese 5th column power still visible in many South East Asia countries right now.

        You are right that “He say and She say” is not wiser but you also cannot prove that “He say and She say” is false too same to Lee Kuan Yew’s memoir.

        • Replies: @d dan
        , @d dan
      134. @Moi

        Confucianism is the biggie.

        In the US and increasingly in other countries, the social ideal is that everyone is an individual. Family means absolutely nothing. In the US it’s not uncommon to have aunts, uncles, even siblings, who have net worth of a million or more, while one is homeless and living on maybe $1500 a year as I’ve done.

        Parents can’t wait to kick their kids out at 18 to sink or swim, with no help for college or job training; that’s all up to them. Typically if a kid sees the writing on the wall and tries to save for their own future, the money’s taken from them.

        It’s not just individualism, it’s radical, pernicious, even cancerous, individualism.

        Basically take any relatively unpolluted traditional culture and they’re going to be head and shoulders above the US. Visitors only have to see the high crime rate, low life expectancy, hordes of homeless etc in the US to see what such extreme individualism results in.

        • Agree: Showmethereal
      135. d dan says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        Great. Thanks for the link.

        Now that you have put up your theory, we can move forward to apply critical thinking to examine who has better interpretation, by exchanging notes and examining them against evidences from past events and known subsequent developments. I appreciate you making efforts (and not trolling) in the discussion.

        I will be busy in the next few days (just in case you are waiting), and will only reply after I read your link “China Quarterly”.

        Cheer.

      136. @d dan

        The theory is not actually theory, this is a conclusion on China agenda to Vietnam and South East Asia.

        Best Regards,
        Unorthodox Black Sheep VN.

      137. @alex in San Jose AKA Digital Detroit

        That is not true of Jews, Italians, Indians, Arabs, Persians or even Hispanics in America. It is true of Anglo Saxons in America, who buy into cultural celebrations of the lone taciturn hero like Chuck Norris or Clint Eastwood riding off into the sunset alone. Anglo-Saxons celebrate both individualism and self-sufficiency, both of which are highways to destruction in America.

        Also, Italians and Jews and Indians and Arabs and Hispanics and Asians are extended familiies because of a complete distrust of the government. American Anglo-Saxons believe the government loves them and view the government as the family when in fact the government only exists to serve the interests of the 1% who don’t give a shit about them.

        The Sopranos, for example, were a form of government among Italian-Americans because they had no trust in the government. Asians, Jews, Hispanics all view their extended family as a government.

        So do the Japanese in Hawaii.

        Only white Americans trust their Bill of Rights, their Constitution, the government…all things that mean dick. Asians, Jews, Italians, Arabs all know this is all BS and only trust blood relatives.

        They come from ancient civilizations of total corruption and are cynical. Anglo-Americans believe in truth, justice, the American Way and end up getting hooked on crystal meth and slobbing knobs in an alley out of disillusionment.

        One reason is IQ. The IQ range among whites in biological terms is a vast compared to other races-whereas Japanese in Hawaii or Jews in NYC all have a high-normal IQ but less geniuses, whites have a huge variance from 90 to 180 IQ’s that manifests itself in the class system. For average whites with IQ’s of 110 in a suburb it is hard to get worked up over the sexual hothouse of molestation and alcoholism in trailer parks.

        Paternalism also is strong with other races. Women are viewed as a source of barter between tribal members to be married for material and strategic purposes. Thus the Chinese father looks after his daughter’s honor. The Anglo does not care if his daughter is a slut at 16 and has to leave home to be a stripper at 18. Except on the highest levels of WASP elite like Donald Trump, whose daughters are going to be controlled and married to high bidders.

        So the Anglo is badly used. His daughter is a slut who is used by rich Jews like Epstein because he only cares about his Superbowl, his Eminem songs, his Coors light.

      138. anon[332] • Disclaimer says:

        but it is a superior culture compared to the US

        Yeah, the chinks are a a beautiful people, apart from that whole imprisoning and killing Urguirs and dissidents, and torturing animals so they can get a hard-on.
        It’s not a superior culture, it’s a mess that’s going to be nuked sooner than later.

      139. @d dan

        Your reasoning is correct. Sadly there are many like “unorthodox”. Keep up the good fight of sound reasoning based on verified facts and historical context.

        • Replies: @d dan
      140. @alex in San Jose AKA Digital Detroit

        Indeed and now Hollywood and Facebook and Twitter are the biggest exporters of individualism and the chaos it causes… Then we have politicians who claim to defend Judeo Christian values but are lock step with those

        • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
      141. @Showmethereal

        Nah, its been around for ages. Anglo-Americans have always been individualists and worshiped lone cowboys who rode of into the sunset alone in a glory of self-sufficiency from Eastwood to Norris. Lone heroes who are individualist end up homeless in America.

        Northern Europeans cannot really operate as a tribal network, the gene is not there, while in countries like China or Italy extended families and clans always distrusted governments and systems.

        Other races actually laugh at and ridicule the high-trust naivete of Northern Europeans. To an Italian-American or an Indian or black steeped in urban cynicism and tribal priority, Anglo Americans are a source of complete gullible hilarity. Their daughters are reduced to sluts and they are cultural guinea pigs for whatever negative trend comes along.

        Also, most Asians or Jews, for example, have a fairly constant median IQ. Their intelligence is high-normal, with little deviation. Whereas whites have a broad skew and the dimmer whites in the trailer parks whose daughters sell themselves to Epstein while their unemployed parents booze are an object of contempt to higher IQ whites in the suburbs.

        • Replies: @antibeast
      142. Wow – delusion and hypocrisy is strong with you. You have zero clue of historical context.

        You claim Chinese aggression in the South China Sea and ywt you completely ignore Vietnam claims the Spratly and Paracel islands. So who is more unbelievable???? You completely ignore Vietnam was seizing features more than anyome else and reclaiming land. Had China not dislodged Vietnam from the Paracels they wouof have taken more and more. If I were you I wouldnt bank on US help either. They wont let Vietnam have them – they just dont want the PRC to have them…. Which i point out the hyoocrisy of that based on the historical fact that they had Japan give them back to the ROC after WW2. But I guess since nobody in the Vietnam military told you that you refuse to acknowledge the historical context of that too.

        Let’s even compare the historical records…. Even your former French colonizers noted the Chinese presence on those islands when they seized them. This is not fantasy world. Are you seriously claiming Vietnam in antiquity had the sea going resources of China?

      143. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        I just read your other comment in full and have a more clear picture of how you think.

        To your mind it appears – Yes everyone is a liar except some Vietnam Viets who tell you your stories. Historical context doesnt matter – just today.

        Well if you say Vietnam has bogus claims too then none of this should matter. Lobby your leaders to vacate all the features they seized in the Spratly Chain and then ask China to re-negotiate the EEZ since Vietnam made concessions. They made concessions to Vietnam before in the SCS and they did on the land border when it was finalized. If you are really serious that is what you would do – but I doubt you are serious. Your perspective is far too muddled.

      144. @Showmethereal

        Listen carefully,

        I also disagree with many things with the Vietnamese Veteran about today but about the past, they are 100% right because I also read my Vietnamese History Records too. The Vietnamese Veteran I know is not bunch of liar, they are the soldiers who fought and survived in 1979 during the 1980s.

        The ASEAN was fear Vietnam come to invade them not because Vietnam want to invade them but because Vietnam want to revenge the ASEAN for their support on Republic of Vietnam and Polpot. Meanwhile, former General Secretary Le Duan with his colleagues were sane enough not to do the insane thing like that. Most of the Vietnamese Veteran I know told me that it was true that ASEAN was afraid the Vietnam Invasion of ASEAN but Vietnam during 1975-1979 could not do it because Vietnam was suffered so much from war and unstable, Vietnam wanted a peace time to rebuild their country, no more war. This is reason why I said Lee Kuan Yew’s Memoir is a liar because I know that Vietnam cannot invaded the whole South East Asia during 1975-1979. Polpot was the one invaded Vietnam first with the support from China and ASEAN. Vietnam must invaded Cambodia first and installed pro-Vietnam government into Cambodia because Vietnam could not survive or live in peace with two hostile regimes, China in North and Cambodia in South.

        Remember one thing: History is written by the victory so it is just good enough to review, not trust entirely.

        This is reason why I prefer to listen what Vietnamese veterans know about their time because I know what they said are not entirely correct but more correct than history books.

        https://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/other/did-vietnam-invade-cambodia-or-save-it-singapore-pm-lee-hsien-loong-stirs-a-khmer-rouge-era-controversy/ar-AACtImb

        https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB867352999986573000

        https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cambodia-singapore-vietnam/cambodias-hun-sen-says-singapore-supported-genocide-idUSKCN1T80QE

        I believe I make you misunderstand, I don’t say the whole ASEAN liar, I said the people who made fear monger (pouring the oil into fire) lie to the whole ASEAN about “Little Imperial Vietnam”. This is reason why I said what ASEAN believed during 1975-1979 was same to what American believed on 9-11 official statement.

        I accused you being a liar because you changed the content of Pham Van Dong’s Letter from “Pham Van Dong sent letter to Zhou En Lai” to “Zhou En Lai sent letter to Pham Van Dong” and lied about the content of Letter. I even post the picture of Pham Van Dong Letter here (China shoot on its own foot by the letter, LOL). The letter is very vague because it mention only “12 nautical mile water of China”, it does even mean the entire South China Sea or Spratly and Paracel Islands. If you just misunderstand the content of the letter, that admit you are misunderstand and I will apologized for accusing you a liar.

      145. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        I fix typo

        “The letter is very vague because it mention only “12 nautical mile water of China”, it does not even mean the entire South China Sea or Spratly and Paracel Islands.”

      146. @Jeff Stryker

        Excellent write-up on the situation.

        And because of this, WASP culture, the fuck-you-I’ve-got-mine culture, deserves to die out.

        • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
      147. @d dan

        “But Vietnam DID invade Cambodia. So it was hard for outsiders to gauge Vietnamese true intention at that time.”

        Vietnam invaded Cambodia, to eliminate the genocidal Pol Pot regime, AFTER the Vietnam war had ended.

      148. ivan says:
        @Smith

        Ain’t that the truth. Better to eat French shit for a few years than Chinese shit for a thousand years as Ho Chi Minh said. The Americans in word and deed as they have shown throughput the Far East brought peace and prosperity whatever be the arguments of the so-called ‘anti-imperialists’ from China who are far worse imperialists when the mask is off. In particular when it the comes to extraction of primary resources such as coal and hydropower. Now they are damming all the upstream of the main rivers that flow into SEA to show the Burmese , Thais and Vietnamese their place. What usually happens is that they will tacitly support the worst elements in weak countries such as Myanmar. I mean the military who chafe under any truly humane arrangements. Then the Americans will impose sanctions which drives the Burmese into Chicom arms. Never fails. And that is how in the end countries like Cambodia became happy hunting grounds for pedophiles.

      149. ivan says:
        @Plato's Dream

        That is the whole truth. The Vietnamese were at the end of their theter when the killing machine turned to the Vietnamese in Cambodia. The Chicoms not once in any forum even raised the matter of the mass killings in then Kampuchea. Sihanouk was an unwilling guest in Peking and largely kept him mouth shut. Mind you this was under the reformist Deng Tsiao Peng, showing that when it comes to indifference to the fate of foreigners there is not an iota of difference between the various factions in the goddamed CCP.

        • Replies: @Showmethereal
      150. G. Poulin says:
        @Kevin Barrett

        Yes, he writes great English prose. I wish he’d write some more poems in English, but he says he’s done with it.

      151. antibeast says:
        @Jeff Stryker

        Northern Europeans cannot really operate as a tribal network, the gene is not there, while in countries like China or Italy extended families and clans always distrusted governments and systems.

        Northern Europeans are very different from Anglo-Americans. The Germans were the first Western country to establish a State-funded Welfare State which eventually became the Nordic model of Social Democracy widely practiced in Northern Europe today. They’re actually far more tribalist than the individualistic Anglo-American Cowboys and also far more egalitarian than the greedy Capitalist Yanks. That’s why the Nordic model of Social Democracy promotes group cooperation rather than individualistic competition, respect for the environment rather than exploitation of nature, welfare for society rather than profit for Capital, the common good rather than private gain.

        The Anglo-American model of Oligarchic Capitalism arose largely from their history as settler-colonists who conquered the Indian and Mexican lands which they’ve since treated as their private property. After settling and colonizing these lands, they proceeded to develop them for material gain which required them to import foreign-born laborers such as African slaves, Chinese coolies, Mexican laborers and European immigrants. To the Anglo-Americans, those people are just hired help in their family business called the USA.

        Anglo-Americans don’t view the land now called “America” as their ancestral homeland with which they hold a sacred bond. They don’t have any spiritual ties to America which they treat as just a piece of private property to be exploited for profit. Neither do they view their hired help as anything but their expendable labor. The concept of paying taxes to benefit the social welfare of their hired help is completely anathema to them and would rather fund their private schools, private hospitals, private colleges, private clubs, private churches, etc. for their own benefit.

        • Replies: @Jeff Stryker
      152. @alex in San Jose AKA Digital Detroit

        I really did not intend to leave the US permanently as a young man but now that Asia is more or less as developed as the US I’m surprised more Americans don’t immigrate.

        I’m surprised more Americans don’t immigrate to countries like Australia, for example. Of course you have to have excellent qualifications, your average white prole with a GED who could benefit from immigrating cannot afford to leave the US.

        But I’m surprised more Americans aren’t jumping over the wall. I cannot understand why so many middle-class Americans who might-given time and effort-managed to immigrate to Sydney don’t do so.

        Also, looking back on reasons I moved overseas when I was young (No wife, no kids, no mortgage, no debt, no legal problems) I’m surprised more young Americans don’t do the same thing.

        What astounds me is that poor whites don’t change. They keep marrying young, even when this is the kiss of death economically. They keep getting hooked on new drugs-it was meth in my time, in the eighties it was crack and now it is Opoids. They keep getting poorer and poorer.

        Why bother to stay in California and pay $3000 a month rent to live next to Cholos fresh out of prison?

      153. @antibeast

        Socialistic snowlands or Japanese welfare capitalism only worked because of a homogeneous population that saw itself as an extended family. America was always ethnically diverse with various races who had different IQ’s and reproductive traits. If one group, for example, reaches maximum fertility at age 16 and has 4 kids out-of-wedlock by 20 they are not going to fair as well as in a post-industrial predator capitalism society as other groups.

        America was always too diverse for that.

        On the subject of Mexico, Spain and Britain were fighting over Southern colonies like Florida from day one. Unlike American, which encouraged the importation of families from England which created a middle class, Spain created a racial system in Latin America with a bunch of poor Indians and a few rich whites and a bunch of Mestizos. As a result, Indians are always fleeing Latin America. They have no choice.

        Nobody comes to the US for spiritual reasons. Donald Trump’s grandfather is a good example. He was motivated by materialism, not wanting to toil in the vineyards of Kalstadt.

        Democracy is associated with individualist cowboys but it is the nepotists who are able to manipulate it. Groups with extended clans-Italians, Jews, Asians-were always going to fare better than the colonial settler. More of them were willing to cooperate as a tribal network.

        Nordic group cooperation is now collapsing because Muslim refugees don’t care about it. They just want their welfare check. Welfare capitalism can handle a few unemployable drunken males who will never reproduce and one or two slutty women but not an alien unemployable mass. It won’t last another generation.

      154. @Jeff Stryker

        Jeff,

        Welfare capitalism can handle a few unemployable drunken males who will never reproduce and one or two slutty women but not an alien unemployable mass.

        That makes sense. And considering more automation and outsourcing of industry to China and elsewhere, they need even less workers. How come whites, who think they’re so intelligent, can’t see this?

        It won’t last another generation.

        Well, since we’re endlessly reminded here of the intelligence of whites, their politicians, experts, government advisers and consultants must have come up with a viable solution but they just don’t want to tell us the detailed workings of the mechanism they’re come up with. But they keep reassuring everybody that the immigrants will somehow pay for the pensions of these Europeans when they grow old, so I suppose they could have something up their sleeve. OK, I’m not that trusting of their intelligence or their propaganda lies, but I hate to make apocalyptic predictions as they’ve managed to muddle through somehow so far. Maybe they’ll just get accustomed to living in these new Brazils and South Africas in northern latitudes. I mean some whites still manage to survive even there. And for any bumps along the way while sliding down into barbaric chaos they can always blame the white man, either any still remaining or those in the past if they go extinct.

      155. pdb says:

        Brother, another interesting article with a fascinating photo of a terraced hill and valley. I was hoping to see a person in that photo, for perspective, but of course everyone is staying indoors.

        As always, I love your reality-based perspective and raunchy humor.

        Patrick

      156. @ivan

        Clown – US supported the Cambodian regime too – covertly – to keep the Soviets and Vietnam out. You hate China – we get it… But stop making fake history that China caused all the problems.

        • Replies: @ivan
      157. @toyotomi

        Hi “Toyotomi”! How are things in “Japan” these days?

        So how do you explain the 1979 war? If China and Vietnam were nothing but the best of friends with no legacy of past hostility, how could a very bloody war have broken out between them practically at the moment of common victory?

        And why are Vietnamese children being taught all these “myths”? What made the Vietnamese state forsake its “timeless friendship” with China? You claim that the French created a false explanation intended to set Vietnamese against Chinese which utterly failed to save French rule but then mysteriously, after all the westerners (French/Americans) had left, burst out immediately into open hostilities. You have utterly failed to explain such a sequence of events with your “China-Vietnam-harmony” theory.

        That China has had huge cultural impact on Vietnam is of course true (as it is for all of East Asia) but the Roman Empire had a huge cultural impact on the German nations (tribes) yet it didn’t stop the major hostilities between the Germans and the Roman state.

        I’m not saying that Vietnam and China won’t necessarily be able to reconcile, but any reconciliation won’t be on the basis of white-washing the historical past.

        • Replies: @toyotomi
      158. @Showmethereal

        @ShowYouIAmALiar

        Pol Pot was not an excuse, Pol Pot was the reason Vietnam Had To invaded Cambodia, and overthrown genocidal regime. The main point here about China supported Pol Pot is not spreading Sinophobia and whitewashing Western supporting on Pol Pot but show that China was not innocent like many pro-China (and Sinophilia) here to believe. You lose the argument and go full “whataboutitsm”.

        I still accuse you a liar because I had given you a chance to prove that you are not a liar by suggesting you should admit that you just don’t understand the content of Pham Van Dong’s letter. If you admit now, then I will apologize for calling you a liar, but if you not then you are a liar to me and I don’t need to listen anything you said.

        By the way, I will never lobby my Vietnam government withdrawn our navy and people from the Spratly islands and the area of Paracel island because I am just a civilian, and I entrust the problem to Vietnamese military, and I don’t trust any “sweet” words from China mouth. China navy goes into Vietnamese EEZ illegally many times and they harassed and sank our fisher boat many times, so no way, I support Vietnam play hard ball on China in South China Sea. Unless China volunteer humble themselves into Vietnam, and set the serious conversation with Vietnam and others countries about how to have fair share in SCS. I know about the SCO but the SCO does not work because the term “fairshare” must be on China definition.

        • Replies: @showmethereal
      159. antibeast says:
        @Jeff Stryker

        If ethnic homogeneity is needed for the cultural viability of a socially inclusive market economy, then how do you explain England in the 18th Century when British Capitalists were exploiting the English Working Class during the Industrial Revolution? Friedrich Engels wrote about their appalling living and working conditions which motivated the Germans to invent the first Welfare State in the Western World after Bismarck established their State-funded National Healthcare System in 1883. Also, a lot of Western “democracies” such as Canada, Switzerland, Belgium, etc. have always had multi-ethnic populations, but they seem to have done well with their State-funded National Healthcare Systems. Why can’t the USA do the same?

      160. @Jeff Stryker

        I only have a GED and some college. So while I did do a year each of college chem, physics, and at least made it through first semester calculus (kept washing out of 2nd) I’m pretty much a prole, myself.

        I wish I’d had the perspective to leave when I was in my 20s.

        It costs boucoup bucks to leave the US, and even basic trade-school skills are getting hard as fuck to get in the US. If I want to go to barber college, it’s more money than I can save up in 10 years. I’d be a new barber in my late 60s and get maybe if I were very lucky, $30/hour to mess with all those greasy heads.

        Forget about HVAC or electric, between my age, my bad-ish back, and my relatively small physical size. I don’t even have the eyesight to be a bus driver.

        You are correct in the vast majority getting just poorer and poorer.

      161. @antibeast

        George Orwell thought when he was growing up that the “lower classes” had black bones instead of white ones, and was near retching at the prospect of running in formation behind a troop of young working-class British troops, about as clean and healthy a group of guys you’re going to find.

        I believe he mentions this in his book “The Road To Wigan Pier”.

        I get the impression that the class divisions in old England were as deep as any racial divisions we have at the present time, if not worse.

        The writer “Thomas Dalrymple”, a doctor in England, writes about the behaviors and mindset of the white underclass there, and it’s appalling.

      162. @antibeast

        I didn’t say you needed diversity for predatory capitalism, or in the case of Edwardian England, class-capitalism.

        What I did say was that you need a homogeneous population for Socialism to work. The country has to see itself as an extended family. The refugees have broken this model down in less than half-a-decade.

        Does Canada’s multi-ethnic population fare well. I’m not sure about that. Some people in Brampton or East Vancouver might be unconvinced.

        State-funded healthcare? Well that’s not exactly part and parcel with the socialist model. Some democracies have it, others don’t.

        • Replies: @antibeast
      163. toyotomi says:
        @Oscar Peterson

        Hi! Oscar
        Actually I’m vietnamese , a namesake of the Japanese shogun .
        How to explain the Sino-VN 1979 war ? to very peculiar conditions : the Khmer rouge after their victory somehow got crazy ( my biased opinion ) and attacked VN , bent on reconquering south VN
        ( formerly called ” land Chenla ” ) . The VN at first asked the Chinese to mediate , the Chinese wouldn’t intervene or couldn’t persuade the Khmers ; so the VN had no choice , they stroke back , but they made a mistake was that , instead of containing the Khmers rouges , they invaded Cambodia and did a regime change . That has the effect of riling Deng siao ping , it was a lèse majesté .
        Anyhow , that was hopefully bygone . In 1989 , after the fall of the Soviet Union , the VN leadership to save their skins came to Canossa in Cheng tu , the VN leaders did a kowtow . A multi faceted pact was signed which established a new bilateral relationship https://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%E1%BB%99i_ngh%E1%BB%8B_Th%C3%A0nh_%C4%90%C3%B4 ; actually , not so new relationship : VN and China resumed their ages-old usual vassal- suzerain links .
        Actually when one studies carefully without bias the Sino- VN relations throughout the years , following VN independance , they lived side by side in peaceful relationship , interrupted by some short run-ins , less than 7 in 1000 years , that’s nothing ; more to the fact , the “Chinese ” rulers , during all these years had too much to do in their own realm to have time to care about the Vietnamese ; besides , apart from the VN , the Chinese rulers had dozens of other vassals – tributaries . The huge majority of VN uninformed of these footnotes of history believed that the ” Chinese ” all those 1000 years spent all their waking hours to watch only VN to pounce on VN
        at the first opportunity . The VN should shake themselves out of that childish thinking , that they are the center of attention of all the different rulers who took over China ( Song , Mongol , Ming , Manchu )
        Why are VN schoolchildren still being taught this stupid knowledge : because even the nowadays
        VN leaders are beholden to that false narrative , of eternal Sino- VN enmity , of Chinese eternal Drang nach Vietnam expansionism : in reality , the red thread of china’s 2000 yearhistory was an alternance between unity and splintering ; VN red thread was “March to the south ”
        The VN thru the loss of Chinese characters have lost thieir cultural roots , the VN are abysmally ignorant of Chinese history , they just have a in-built fuzzy conviction of ” Chinese ” malevolence ,
        they have an irrational gut hatred of the Chinese , their minds seared by the 1000 years of ” slavery under chinese feet ” , that’s an unbearable , unredeemable trauma

      164. @toyotomi

        I truly cannot say you are a troll or not. If you are truly a Vietnamese, I am really glad to find more non-Sinophobia Vietnamese who had ability to being skeptical about our country Vietnam history. However, I have to give you feed back on something:

        1. The so-called “Secret meeting at Chengdu” is just some kind of “pouring the oil on fire”, “add this cut that”, the thing like always happen and this is still happen right now and majority of Vietnamese especially the people like me understand that. The main point here that VN leaders cannot give China more excuses to invade Vietnam anymore, I mean China is a big country with high population, how can a small country can beat the big country like China especially China is our “neighbor from hell”. The VN wikipedia also contain the link from RFA VN, BBC VN, and the oversea Vietnamese news like RFA VN, BBC VN have the directly or indirectly link with the terrorist organization Viet Tan and I suggest you should be skeptical about them or never listen anything they say radically. I don’t see the so-called “Secret meeting at Chengdu” is the proof to prove that Vietnam will become a Chinese province.

        2. The last generation Vietnam leaders like Pham Van Dong, Do Muoi, Vo Nguyen Giap, etc. didn’t not “their own skin” at the Chengdu, they has to make peace with China soon as possible to save Vietnam from the constantly war. They are patriotism and nationalism. I truly don’t know or understand why you think like that.

        3. I agree with you the “1000 years” is just Sinophobia right now and majority of Vietnamese don’t recognize the country that more brutal than China like Israel, Turkey, USA, West European countries, etc. However, that does not mean it can whitewash the hard cold fact that every single China Dynasty for some unhealthy obsession, always want to invaded Vietnam first.

        I suggest you should review more from the link below:

        Con trai cố nhà báo Đạm Phong họp báo ở San Jose tố cáo Đảng Việt Tân (1)

        Terror In Little Saigon (2015)

        Ts Trần Công Trục (p5): Hội nghị Thành Đô và Công văn cố TT Phạm Văn Đồng

        SỰ THẬT VỀ QUAN HỆ VIỆT NAM & TRUNG QUỐC TRONG 30 NĂM QUA
        https://sachhiem.net/LICHSU/NXB_ST/NXBSuThat.php

        Năm 2020 đến, nghĩ về “Hiệp ước Thành Đô nói Việt Nam là một tỉnh của Trung Quốc”
        https://canhco.net/nam-2020-den-nghi-ve-hiep-uoc-thanh-do-noi-viet-nam-la-mot-tinh-cua-trung-quoc-p348976.html

        • Replies: @Commentator Mike
      165. antibeast says:
        @Jeff Stryker

        That was my point: England was ethnically homogeneous for most of its history, its population comprised mostly of Anglo-Saxon racial stock mixed with Celtic natives and Nordic immigrants. But somehow English society diverged from its Northern European neighbors. The Roman Empire followed by the Norman Conquest could have influenced the eventual class stratification of English Society unlike the Germanic tribes in Northern Europe who were not ruled by the Roman Empire.

        But Western countries such as Switzerland which has the oldest “democracy” in its purest form do have a fairly-extensive State-funded Welfare State while still maintaining their highly-Capitalist market economy. And the Swiss are far from being ethnically homogeneous with their Swiss, German, French and Italian Cantons.

        Similarly, Canada is also home to three Nations: First Nation, British-Canadian and French-Canadian. That’s what I was referring to when describing Canada as ethnically diverse because they had three major ethnic groups before the recent deluge of multicultural immigrants from all over the world.

      166. ivan says:
        @Showmethereal

        Bloody fool. Don’t try to. teach me what happened in my region. The fucking Chicoms were the main and only supporter of Kampuchea. The Americans and the rest only supported the Asean policy of non-interference . For countries like Singapore made a big song and dance about their fear of Vietnamese expansionism. The Americans had their own brush with the Khmer Range with the Mayaguez affair. To the extent that any Western power “supported” Pol Pot, it was only to bolster the Asean position against Vietnam. But even among Asean members the Singaporeans were a hyperventilating lot. You neither have the knowledge nor the ability to carry out a sustained argument. Don’t try patronising me

        • Replies: @showmethereal
      167. Dumbo says:

        Lihn Dihn, are you still in South Korea? Take care with the Corona and keep posting.

        • Replies: @Linh Dinh
      168. Linh Dinh says: • Website
        @Dumbo

        Yeah, I’ll be here for a while. There’s some danger of me dying from a kim chi overdose, but otherwise, I should be OK. I’ve roamed around Bongcheon, Myeongdong, Gangnam, Itaewon and Yatsu, and folks were out shopping, eating and even drinking, though clearly not nearly as much as usual. Those interested in what daily life looks like in Seoul should check out my constantly updated blog.

      169. @ivan

        Ahhh yes – the Chinese were the “bad” communists and the Vietnamese the “good” communists..?? Who is the fool again?

      170. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        No – the real reason was helping expand Soviet expansion as Vietnam was the Soviet acolyte. Pretty excuses. But I get already – Vietnam is always right in your eyes.

        As to sharing the SCS – again – stop with the garbage. Vietnam has seized more features in the SCS than anyone else. Vietnam is the most aggressive. It is a fact that can be counted. China got aggressive to counter Vietnam. The rest of the players were too weak. Even “Taiwan” repeatedly complained against Vietnam in decades past – up to today. They don’t even get along with Beijing.

      171. @showmethereal

        ROFL!!!!

        Is that all you can do? Repeating the conspiracy “Soviet used Vietnam to invade the whole South East Asia” and the hero China had saved the South East Asia from “Little Imperial Vietnam”.

        I had explained and provided the story I know from Vietnamese Veterans and what I learned from Vietnamese historical records, with some foreign viewpoint on Vietnam (including Chinese ones) too but you still CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE OR AT LEAST CONSIDER WHAT I SAID. I am right about the pro-China (Sinophilia) like you, in your eyes, China is God and China is right all time, and I assume that you are going to believe any China’s crimes in the future (if that will happen, of course) like genocidal, invasion, etc. are heroic. (If you are a Chinese, then I am truly understand for your protective on China).

        Do you admit you just misunderstand Pham Van Dong’s Letter or not? If you do, then I will apologize for calling you a liar. If you don’t, then you are a liar.

      172. toyotomi says:

        History is partially hard facts and mostly bias or doctoring of evidence or fantasy .
        I confess to not sharing the two main tenets of VN approach to past relationhips with China :
        _ the 1000 years of Chinese domination ; for me , it’s a fabrication , a kind of false- induced memories
        _ the paranoiac belief that ever since Ngô Quyên independance ( ca 960 ) , the Chinese are always obsessed with VN and yearning to re invade it at every opportunity .
        If anyone wish , I ‘ll try to expose my rationales to sustain such assertions .
        Please , fellow VN countrymen , do not construe it as meaning ” I want you to be Chinese “

        • Replies: @d dan
      173. @Chinaman

        BRITISHBRAINSIZE1325CCLOL
        a viet could witness a rape and killing of his wife sister and kids by british people US UK NZ AUS Canada and he would still welcome his ass to his house years later like they are doing for veterans from these countries, truly cucked people.

      174. @Reader from Hongkong

        BRITISHBRAINSIZE1325cclol
        Ican smell the dirty british in you through the computer , hk is not britain anymore so leave

      175. @Jeff Stryker

        I think alex is mexican american I am only going by his name i maybe wrong though

      176. ivan says:
        @showmethereal

        There is something to what you say. There was a fevered anticipation of Soviet expansionism in the brains of men like Lee Kuan Yew, aided by all the war material abandoned by the Americans in Vietnam, but that soon petered when Gorbi came to power. But under the radar the Chicoms have been laying claim to everything under the sun and that doesn’t like it is going away without a fight.

        • Replies: @Showmethereal
      177. @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        Didn’t the Chinese Army push into Korea to drive the Americans away? And did the Chinese colonise North Korea and remain there? How many Chinese military bases are there in North Korea today? Fewer than US bases in South Korea I’d think.

        • Agree: Showmethereal
      178. d dan says:
        @Unorthodox Black Sheep VN

        This is the my promised response about the issue whether China preferred a divided Vietnam in 1954-55.

        Thank you again for the link by Chen Jian on “China’s Involvement in the Vietnam War, 1964-69” [1]. By providing the link, I assume you trust this author. After reading the writing, I too find him reasonably objective. For example, even though he is a Chinese (who according to Wikipedia, is a Professor emeritus at Cornell University), his comment for CCP is quite unfaltering. His assessment of Mao is blunt and direct. For example:

        “While Beijing’s leaders, Mao in particular, emphasized repeatedly that the Vietnamese should be treated as “equals,” the statement itself revealed a strong sense of superiority on the part of the Chinese revolutionaries, implying that they had occupied a position from which to dictate the values and codes of behaviour that would dominate their relations with their neighbours… Beijing asked for something bigger, that is, the Vietnamese recognition of China’s morally superior position.” – [1] page 386

        An arrogant attitude, no doubt. However, with regards to the issue concerned, this source completely fails to support your position. The evidences Chen provided overwhelmingly and repeatedly contradict your point that China preferred a divided Vietnam. They also fail to support your explanation that it would weaken Vietnam and provided a gateway to invade the rest of South East Asia. The only statement in the entire document of your “favor” is the follwoing sentence you quoted:

        “Beijing seemed more willing than their comrades in Hanoi to accept the fact that Vietnam would be indefinitely divided. [1] ”

        Let’s analyze this sentence thoroughly to see what it mean. Firstly, the word “seemed” implied an opinion of the author, i.e. his impression. He does not claim it is China’s preference, but just what it looks like. Secondly the words “more willing” imply China’s relative inclination with respect to Vietnamese. It does not mean an absolute preference. For example, “I am ‘more willing’ to accept gambling lost than you” does not imply I prefer gambling lost. Finally, even if you take out the opinion-word “seem” and the relative-words “more willing”, the modified sentence “Beijing accepts the fact that Vietname would be indefinitely divided” still does not imply Beijing PREFERS Vietnam to be divided. For example, a father may accept that his criminal son would be indefinitely imprisoned does not imply the father “prefers” the son to be indefinitely imprisoned. So, your only “supporting” sentence is at best a neutral point.

        Next, let’s examine the long list of evidences, facts and figures raised by Chen that contradict your claims. Let’s look into the “China crook behaviors” as you called them, to see what they really imply. Immediate after your quote statement is the following:

        “The realization of revolutionary transformation in the South,” according to Beijing, “was impossible at the current stage.” Beijing therefore suggested that Hanoi should adopt in the South a
        strategy of “not exposing our own forces for a long period, accumulating our own strength, establishing connections with the masses, and waiting for the coming of proper opportunities.”‘ The nation-wide famine following the failure of the Great Leap Forward forced the Beijing leadership to focus on dealing with domestic issues. During Zhou Enlai’s meetings with Ho Chi Minh and Pham Van Dong, North Vietnam’s Prime Minister, in Hanoi in May 1960, he advised the Vietnamese that they should adopt a flexible approach in the South by combining political and military struggles. He emphasized that even when military struggle seemed inevitable, it was still necessary for political struggle to take an important position.” – [1] page 358

        See what does it reveal? Does the advice “waiting for the coming of proper opportunities” and “should adopt a flexible approach in the South by combining political and military struggles” sound like China preferred a divided China or does it sound like China was advising a more patient approach? The plain interpretation of the words indicate the later. That interpretation is also supported further by the real ACTION that China did. China’s help was not just in words, but included real assistance:

        “Under these circumstances and in response to Hanoi’s requests, China offered substantial military aid to Vietnam before 1963. According to one highly reliable Chinese source, during the 1956-63 period, China’s military aid to Vietnam totalled 320 million yuan. China’s arms shipments to Vietnam included 270,000 guns, over 10,000 piece of artillery, 200 million bullets of different types, 2.02 million artillery shells, 15,000 wire transmitters, 5,000 radio transmitters, over 1,000 trucks, 15 planes, 28 naval vessels, and 1.18 million sets of military uniforms” – [1] page 359

        Remember that China was extremely poor at that time, and famine had killed millions. Of course, readers are see table 1 for the summary of China’s aids throughout the entire war. Further, the assistance was not restricted to material, but also others:

        “China would send volunteer pilots, volunteer troops and other volunteers – such as engineering units for constructing railways, roads and bridges – to North Vietnam” – [1] page 369

        Still, more evidence emerged later that China supported a unified Vietnam:

        “Secondly, Beijing and Hanoi appeared to have reached a fundamental agreement in the spring and summer of 1965 that the Vietnamese would fight the war with their own forces; China’s main role would be to guarantee logistical support and defend the North, allowing the Vietnamese to send as many troops to the South as possible.” – [1] page 371

        So, perhaps you would explain why would China “guarantee logistical support and defend the North” that allowed “the Vietnamese to send as many troops to the South as possible” if China preferred a divided Vietnam. China could simply withhold the assistance, couldn’t they? And then, in the May 16, 1965 meeting:

        “What the Vietnamese needed, Ho stated, was China’s material and military support, so that Hanoi could send its own people to fight in the South. Mao was ready to provide such assistance, and he promised Ho that China would offer “whatever support was needed by the Vietnamese.” Ho then asked Mao to commit China’s resources to building 12 new roads for Vietnam. Mao gave his consent immediately.” – [1] page 358

        Not only Mao consented immediately, but the promise was backed up with action:

        “Following Mao’s instructions, the Chinese General Staff quickly worked out a preliminary plan to send around 100,000 Chinese engineering troops to Vietnam for road construction.” – [1] page 372

        And that was not all. Even more assistance was given:

        “In addition to the dispatch of these engineering troops, in accordance with the agreement between Beijing and Hanoi reached in July 1965, China sent a communication engineering brigade to Vietnam in October of the same year.” – [1] page 374

        “The use of anti-aircraft artillery troops in defending important North Vietnamese targets and covering Chinese engineering troops.” – [1] page 375

        In summary, we see that:

        “From early August 1965 to March 1969, a total of 16 divisions (63 regiments) of Chinese anti-aircraft artillery units, with a total strength of over 150,000, engaged in operations in Vietnam.” – [1] page 376

        And the assistance was not restricted to Vietnam:

        “China offered material support to Vietnamese troops stationed in upper Laos in 1967.” – [1] page 378

        Going through the whole document, I don’t see any “China crook behaviors”. China’s words were back up with actions, real assistance in time of great difficulties and poverty in China. The staggering amount of evidences and historical events supplied by Chen (a link that you provided) all supported that China genuinely preferred a unified Vietnam.

        ==========

        Now let’s turn to your explanation of the reason that China wanted a divided Vietnam permanently:

        “The main point here China never want to an independent and unity Vietnam because weak and a divided Vietnam (North Vietnam only) will not have any choice to do anything for itself, and North Vietnam must follow the order from China. If Vietnam is united, then Vietnam had many chance to become a powerful country that good enough to not depended on any others country, and Chinese elites want Vietnam remain weak and depended on China as vassal stated by dividing Vietnam, and China just supported North Vietnam to keep North Vietnam alive.” -by “Unorthodox Black Sheep VN”

        The beauty of this exchange is that by forcing you to come up with your own explanation of the deeper motive of China’s behavior, it exposes all your weak links. In order to cover a crackpot theory, you have to come up with an even bigger crackpot theory that China wanted to conquer the entire South East Asia. (Side note: I know you don’t like the word “crackpot”, but it is an attack on your idea, not on you personally. You don’t call this “ad hominem”) A truely gigantic hegemonic project that they didn’t even bother to do when China was much more powerful and other nations much weaker. (like in Ming’s Zheng He fleet)

        “Look again the North Korea and South Korea, you will see what I mean.” -by “Unorthodox Black Sheep VN”

        Sure, I don’t see any PLA in North Korea, do you? If China wanted to stay, they had plenty of excuses to stay because US troop is still there, and there was nothing North Korea could do. So, how does that support your claim that China wanted a divided Korea or Vietnam? No, it doesn’t. Your sentenec points in exactly the opposite direction of what you want people to believe.

        “Controlling Vietnam is the first step to invade and control entire South East Asia. A unite and strong Vietnam will never let China borrow their own country to become a road for military invasion on South East Asia countries. Mao Zedong had Great Han Ideology so he wanted invaded the whole East Asia and South East Asia so China could have more power with more land, resources, and to become an empire.” -by “Unorthodox Black Sheep VN”

        Let’s compare your claim of China’s wanting “more power with more land, resources” with historical FACTS – events that DID actually happen. When PRC was founded in 1949, it had unsettled boundary in borders with every neighbor. Today, China is the country in the world with the most neighboring countries (14), even more than Russia’s number (13). Look at what M. Taylor Fravel from MIT says [2]:

        “China gave 17 substantial concessions in 23 disputes active since 1949, often agreeing to accept less than half of the territory being disputed. In 15 disputes, the compromise created conditions for a final territorial settlement through bilateral agreement.” [2]

        In the case of North Korea, for example, China gave up to 70% of disputed land to North Korea. Although most China’s neighbors were/are small and weak countries, there were cases where China gave up to 90% of the disputed land to the other party. How could this be a nation that wants “more power with more land, resources”? In fact, if you look at China’s 14 neighbors, the strongest 3 were: Soviet, India and Vietnam. Ironically, China had border conflicts with all the 3 strongest ones, but magically settled everything else peacefully with the weaker ones. Wonder why didn’t China invade Tajikistan (population 9 millions), Laos (population 7 mllions), Kyrgyzstan (population 6 millions) or Bhutan (population 0.8 million), but somehow, it was so obssessed to attack its strongest neighbor Vietnam (population: 96 millions)? China strategic planners must be the dumbest in the world if they wanted “more land”.

        According to you, to achieve the “Great Han Ideology”, China then had to turn on its overseas diaspora:

        “In the South East Asia countries, China had influenced the overseas with their own spies and turn them into 5th column army so the Chinese overseas can control and bend the South East Asia countries into Chinese vassal states on the economic. The 5th column army on economic is not good enough for China Empire plan, China want the whole South East Asia to become China territory with only Chinese only.” -by “Unorthodox Black Sheep VN”

        But somehow, back in reality, China’s message must be extremely confusing to their imaginary “5th column”:

        “China, for its part, has been careful not to claim the loyalty of its overseas kin. Successive prime ministers, from Zhou Enlai to Li Peng, made it clear that ethnic Chinese overseas owed their loyalty to host governments. ” [3]

        Next, you want readers to believe the North-South partitioning was an UNILATERAL action by China to back-stab Vietnam:

        “After the victory on Battle of Dien Bien Phu, Vietnam can claim the South Vietnam legally from China with the help of China, of course, at the Geneva 1954. However, China instead approve the existence of the Republic of Vietnam. China intended to leave France control South Vietnam because France could halved the involvement of US into South East Asia.” -by “Unorthodox Black Sheep VN”

        But let’s bring back the real history: China was not that powerful. Soviet was in the conference too. It was much more powerful than China. It had nuclear weapons that China lacked. So why don’t you accuse Soviet of back-stabbing too. The partition could be done only with the consent of Soviet, US, France, other western powers, and most important of all, by Vietnam itself. See what Ho himself said in a book by Fredrik Logevall [4] from Harvard:

        “A remarkable session it was, as Ho Chi Minh and General Secretary Truong Chinh took turns articulating the need for an early political settlement so as to prevent a military intervention by the United States, now the “main and direct enemy” of Vietnam. “In the new situation, we cannot follow the old program,” Ho declared. “Before, our motto was, ‘war of resistance until victory.’ Now, in view of the new situation, we should uphold a new motto: ‘peace, unification, independence, and democracy.’” A spirit of compromise would be required by both sides to make the negotiations succeed, and there could be no more talk of wiping out and annihilating all the French troops. A demarcation line allowing the temporary regroupment of both sides would be necessary.” – [4] page 598

        Blame all you can on China, the fact is clear that Ho wanted a partition too. The only difference was that they wanted it to be 16 parallel instead of 17 parallel:

        “The DRV officials chafed under the pressure from their powerful allies is undeniable. “He has double-crossed us,” Pham Van Dong is alleged to have muttered to an aide after one of the final haggling sessions, in reference to Zhou, a remark that has the ring of truth. But the argument should not be taken too far. The Viet Minh, as we have seen, had their own reasons for wanting a negotiated settlement in mid-1954, their own concerns about the balance of forces on the ground, their own fears of American intervention. Even before Geneva, internal documents show, they thought in terms of the area around the sixteenth parallel as a possible line of division, and they reiterated this suggestion in the early,secret Franco-Viet Minh negotiations in Geneva.” – [4] page 609

        Finally, back to your “5th column” consipracy:

        “This is reason why Le Duan had run notorious anti-China in Vietnam to force them out of Vietnam in 1979 and Le Duan had successfully destroyed the Chinese 5th column power in Vietnam meanwhile the Chinese 5th column power still visible in many South East Asia countries right now.” -by “Unorthodox Black Sheep VN”

        Yes, just like what they did with the “boat people”, a shameful chapter of Vietnamese history.

        ===========

        Vietnamese had suffered enormously. It is encumber of Vietnameses to search hard and deep of their past history and causes, as well as the mistakes that could had been avoided. For example, in 1954, both Zhou and Ho saw the possibility of peaceful unification through election. Sadly, that dream didn’t realize. However, had Ho heeled Mao’s advice to be patient, who knows how many millions could be saved. History has shown that peaceful unification could be achieved, like East/West Germany. China demonstrated and achieved that hopeful path too with its incredibly patient approach to Hong Kong, Macao and (possibly) Taiwan. It could have taken Hong Kong and Macao much more easily than what Vietnamese did with South Vietnam, not only because both UK and Portugal were so much weaker than US, but also because both cities were totally indefensible (simply cut off the water). Further, India had provided a precedence by invading Portugal colony of Goa without consequence. China’s patience has yielded the most tangible results for its people: the peaceful solutions.

        Today, many Vietnamese and Chinese are friends (or even best friends). The depressingly distorted views of you are extremely unhelpful for the reconcilation. It poisons the relationship and makes China less willing to come forward to help Vietnam in future crisis. Therefore my long response and sincere best wishes for Vietnam.

        References:
        [1] “China’s Involvement in the Vietnam War, 1964-69”, by Chen Jian, http://www3.nccu.edu.tw/~lorenzo/Jian%20China%20Involvement%20Vietnam.pdf
        [2] “Strong Borders, Secure Nation: Cooperation and Conflict in China’s Territorial Disputes”, by M. Taylor Fravel (2008), Princeton: Princeton University Press.
        [3] “In Asia’s Chinese diaspora, are loyalties divided?” by Michael Vatikiotis, https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/opinion/michael-vatikiotis-in-asias-chinese-diaspora-are-loyalties-divided.html
        [4] “Embers of War: The Fall of an Empire and the Making of America’s Vietnam”, by Logevall, Fredrik (2012), Random House.

        • Agree: Showmethereal
        • Replies: @Anon
      179. d dan says:
        @toyotomi

        “If anyone wish , I ‘ll try to expose my rationales to sustain such assertions .”

        toyotomi: Yes, please share your views. I am interested. Thank you.

      180. d dan says:
        @Showmethereal

        “Keep up the good fight of sound reasoning based on verified facts and historical context.”

        Thanks Showmethereal. I have read many of your well-informed comments on many threads. My hat up to you.

        • Replies: @toyotomi
      181. @d dan

        D Dan,

        I had read your messages and I had found out my THREE MAIN MISTAKES:

        * I have to admit that Korea is very different from Vietnam. So my point is irrelevant. I have to changed my explain. Your explain had encourage me to take research more on North and South Korea. I am truly grateful about this.

        * The “crackpot” part is my bad. I apologize for thinking you are being ad-hominem. I think you should just call me “crackpot” directly. I call you being ad-hominem because I think you call the soldier I know “crackpot”.

        * I am being vague on the China help Vietnam. It is true that without China, Vietnam cannot defeated France and US. I should be details on this one. This is my big mistake for making you think I think Vietnam can did it without China and Soviet help. The point here Vietnamese like is truly grateful on Chinese people but we cannot grateful on Chinese elites because Chinese funded Vietnam to keep only North Vietnam alive for Chinese own agenda.

        I am truly appreciate for your very details explain and your effort to help me understand your view point on the history. However, I cannot agree with you about this.

        Now I have to give you some feed backs and I truly don’t being ad-hominem, I just try my best to help you understand:

        First, you are being stuff on the believe “China Is Completely Innocent” and “Vietnam and China are best friend to each ohter” during 1950s-1978. Because you are being stuff on that believe, you are unable to see the dark sides of the relationship between Vietnam and China. According to what I know, since the Geneva Conference 1954, Ho Chi Minh and Mao Zedong already had the conflict to each other the problem both leaders play the “Political Correctness” so they don’t dare to show their disputed attitude at each other in front of the common people because they already built the Vietnam-China brother hood picture to the both Vietnamese and Chinese. Ho Chi Minh and Mao Zedong conflict at each other always happens behind the “curtain”. Because you believe and understand the thing so directly and literally, you don’t understand or know the “double-talk” thinking and question what is truly happening behind the “beautiful thing”. Ho Chi Minh agreed with Mao Zedong about the 17 parallel not because he trust Mao Zedong but because Ho Chi Minh know he could not mess up with the big country like China. Ho Chi Minh must pretend he stupid enough to believe Mao Zedong. Ho Chi Minh appointed Le Duan to become General Secretary because Le Duan had hard ball to pissed off China. You can review more again from the CIA document here (you also cannot prove that the document are fake), combine from what I know from opinion and knowledge of soldiers on Le Duan, Le Kien Trung interview, I myself conclude that the document is true.

        http://www.cliostein.com/documents/2001/01%20ja%20le%20duan%20cold%20war.pdf

        Second, there is no “what if” in the history, the problem here China had made very bad comparison on “slow Vietnam Unity” to “China unite to Taiwan”. Look at China and Taiwan, they are not unite right now in both social and political, how can we know Vietnam can be united in the future, Vietnam can be stuff in the situation like NK and SK right now. I’m so sorry, I cannot agree with you about this “slow Vietnam Unity” because they are nothing more than your own assumptions and the assumption is based on the believe “China is 100% good guys”. You had failed to look at the other sides and you just look and believe one sides instead, you don’t have the “consideration ability”.

        Third, I will made a short comment on PLA withdrew from North Korea. I had explained from what I understand from North Korea, North Korea had complete depended on China in both Political and Economic, USA didn’t now want to triggered the incoming war with Soviet Union. Both China and USA had made a good deal that was good for both sides. You had to understand that political was a crazy and illogical world, the elites mind set was truly hard to understand (I don’t want to use the word bizarre because it is very generalize).

        In fact, if you look at China’s 14 neighbors, the strongest 3 were: Soviet, India and Vietnam. Ironically, China had border conflicts with all the 3 strongest ones, but magically settled everything else peacefully with the weaker ones. Wonder why didn’t China invade Tajikistan (population 9 millions), Laos (population 7 mllions), Kyrgyzstan (population 6 millions) or Bhutan (population 0.8 million), but somehow, it was so obssessed to attack its strongest neighbor Vietnam (population: 96 millions)? China strategic planners must be the dumbest in the world if they wanted “more land”.

        The problem here from what I explain to you, and I encourage you try to spend more time to read the Vietnamese book by using translation software to understand more about China plan to invaded the whole South East Asia and you can asked someone know Vietnamese to explain the content on the book. The main point here China wanted to make Vietnam weak as much as they and Vietnam is stronger little bit would be considered a threat to China by Chinese paranoid thinking. You had to understand that Chinese had the Great Han Ideology that blind them from seeing practical direction and make them so arrogant, if you look at the China history, you could see that China was colonized by destroying themselves with the arrogant ideology “China Is The Best One”. The Ten Great Campaign was the proof to prove that how China nearly destroyed themselves by their own arrogant. You failed to investigate the mental capability of Chinese elites (I don’t mean Chinese elites are psychopath like AngloZionism ones).

        After 1975, Vietnam-China relationship was very bad, China supported Pol Pot to attacked and invaded Vietnam from the South Vietnam. You can read again more on Conical Hat report in The Saker to understand more. I explain to you that Vietnam had some kind of Unique geography that good enough for military invasion on the whole South East Asia.

        Fourth, about “Soviet back-stab” China, I don’t know or understand what truly happened between two country during the 1960s, I think mainly “Nikita Khrushchev”? China also successful built the nuclear bomb too. You had accidentally made a very bad comparison the Soviet Union countries to Non Soviet Union countries. They are very different in politically and social, what your point here? Attacking one Soviet Union country is equal to attack the whole Soviet Union. Meanwhile Laos and Vietnam are not. Think again, South East Asian was not united like Soviet Union, so China could invaded the whole South East Asian in the speed “one by one”.

        Fifth, Chinese 5th Column army is still active in South East Asian right now, and I will said they had basically function to the Jewish Organization in European, Russia and USA, however, they can used ONLY ECONOMIC POWER to bend down the country they settle to bow the China. Le Duan must do the tyrant thing to Chinese here because he must put Vietnam first and the 5th column was a true threat because they control too much on economics. I myself see the action is not something to proud, this is brutal and shameful but I conclude that the racism policy is something must do and it has given Vietnam more chances to survive right now in long term. I cannot judge Le Duan on this one but I believe Le Duan had done what he had to do. By the way, before 2014, majority of Vietnamese young generation didn’t even know the existence of Le Duan.

        The references you show me help and encourage me to try to spend more time to research on China during the Cold War. Thank you so much!!

        I’m so sorry, your explain is very reasonable and right in many things but the problem here you TRULY DON’T TAKE RESEARCH on the MENTAL MINDSET of Chinese elites, your thinking is very straight away (not black and white, of course). You had to understand that political always lies all times. You had to overcome the believe “China Is Savior” because your explain is based on that believe, not actually investigate (I mean you had done great job to take research but you unknowingly let the believe blind your reseason).

        I cannot agree with you on your explain. I truly sorry for this.

        • Thanks: Oscar Peterson
      182. toyotomi says:
        @d dan

        _ the 1000-year narrative was modeled after the French ” Gaulois ” myth , which was invented in the second half of the 19th century : the Gaulois despite being conquered by the Romans during centuries
        weren’t assmilated into Rman culture , their independant spirit resurfaced after the fall of the Roman Empire
        _ around that time was invented in France the concept of the ” nation ” , to ideologically extol the ” peuple ” ( low class , peasantq ) ; the nation has 3 inttertwined elements : territory , people ,and culture ; the same homogeneous people occupied the same territory with the same fully-bodied and homogenous culture over a long period of time
        Formerly , the history of a country would be the history of the ruling monarch and of his kingdom ; that was the method of chinese hostoriography , seen in the 24 histories
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Four_Histories , the history of 24 different empires or kingdoms which succeded to power in geographical China over thousands of ye

      183. toyotomi says:

        ( follow up )
        Formerly , the history of a country would be the history of the ruling monarch and of his dynasty ; that was the method of chinese hostoriography , seen in the 24 histories
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-Four_Histories ,
        the history of 24 different empires or kingdoms which succeded to power in geographical China over thousands of years ( some of them barbarian peoples ) The point I would emphasize is : for chinese historians , when a new polity arose , then is written a new history of the ruler and his dynasty ; no artificail continuity would be forced between those different entities .
        So , formerly , there were no thinking of a ” Chinese ” people and ” Vietnamese ” people , there were only serfs under the rule of feudal kings who fought against each other and overthrew each other . The concept of 1000-year of a chinese ethnie continuously dominating a VN one was built on thin air , invented out of nothing , an intellectual contraption .
        The poor VN peasants of ancient times were oppressed by their feudal rulers ; now from the future , comes someone who informs them : good news , folks ; you didn’t know that but you were also enslaved by chinese people

      184. @Chinaman

        Serious question- when did the chinkies get so hostile against the whites?

        I’ve noticed the yellow hatred against whites has been ramped up to 11 lately. And the biggest haters are actually 2nd and 3rd generation slope immigrants, who aren’t asian by nationality and who speak perfect engrish. I can feel them dripping with insecurity too.

        It’s weird. Just seemed to happen like a switch. Your thoughts?

        To be fair I know nothing of the white tourist crowd. Don’t even know what they’re like, or what they’re doing overseas. But it still does not explain the bananas sudden hatred of whites.

        Anyways, at some point in the future we will realize how insane the west has been since the boomers – and we’ll rapidly find out that different ethnic groups just don’t mix. Whites blacks, yellows all need their own place.

        • Replies: @Brutiss
      185. @toyotomi

        Thanks. Very interesting. Sorry I did not get back to this string earlier.

        The huge majority of VN uninformed of these footnotes of history believed that the ” Chinese ” all those 1000 years spent all their waking hours to watch only VN to pounce on VN
        at the first opportunity .

        I still don’t entirely understand where the Vietnamese delusion that you are claiming originates. Is it with the French colonial administration (who were fighting wars with China in the mid/late 19th century? Or was it already developing within the pre-French Vietnamese state?

        How would you compare the Korea-China historical relationship to the Vietnam-China one?

        And somewhat off topic, what is your view of the development of the South China Sea issue? I have wondered for some time if the joint submission by Vietnam and Malaysia in 2009 to under the LOS framework (which I suspect might have been coordinated by the US) motivated China, to build its dredger fleet and plan the coup de main in the Spratleys (Nansha) that they unleashed in 2015.

        I have always found it strange that Malaysia and Vietnam could have coordinated a common approach without some external force to bring them together, and there is only one external force that realistically could have been behind it.

        Thoughts?

        • Replies: @Showmethereal
        , @toyotomi
      186. @ivan

        Laying claim to everything under the sun??? Huh? It was not hidden that China materially supported communist revolutions in Asia. However it is also true that it stopped in order to establish diplomatic relations. If thay was the case it would have also kept the part of Vietnam it took during the 1979 war is supposedly “lost”. It held that land for over a decade and then gave it back when formal peace was maid. The islands in the SCS are another matter. The international community gave no objection when at the Treaty of Taipei – Japan formally surrendered them to the Republic of China – holed up on Taiwan after retreating. It is all hypocrisy

      187. @Oscar Peterson

        If i may chime in. Vietname was the main country reclaiming land and seizing features in the Spratlys…. That was what made China start. Obama stating the US pivot to Asia pushed it into overdrive.

        But look below at how the western MSM frames things. They want everyone to be empathetic toward Taiwan… So only in stories about their claims will they point out what Vietnam was doing. If this report was about the Mainland it would frame it completely different and they would probably not mention any of it. It is all games and wordplay mixed in with some facts.

        https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-Pacific/2014/0923/Pixel-by-pixel-Taiwan-maps-out-claims-to-contested-South-China-Sea

      188. toyotomi says:
        @Oscar Peterson

        _ after Ngô Quyên 939 VN independance , in China and VN , parallely one dynasty followed another , overthrowing its predecessor every time violently . In China , in 960 , we have the Songs 300 years ; they had 3 run-ins with Dai Viêt ( then VN ) but most of the time , they fought for their lives against barbarian northern empires , falling off finallt to the Mongols . After , the Mongols attackes VN 3 times , they lasted 100 plus years , chased out by the Mings 300 years ( Han Chinese ) : who after briefly occupying VN retreated into isolationism . Lastly the Manchus ( barbarians ) ruled geographical China 300 years , until 1911 ; at the then VN king’s behest , they intervened into a civil war and were repulsed by Quang trung . The 1000 -year period after independance become known to the VN with the paranoiac catch phrase : the same Chinese continuously wanted to reinvade VN , they had nothing to do but thinking about VN . During that time , most of the time , the VN overthrew each other , marched to the south or fought agzinst themselves , unencumbered by their northern neighbors and whoever wins goes north to bring tributes ( which outside of the meaning , asking for recognition , was a kind of tariffs to be allowed to trade with China ) ; the tributes were due every 3 years , unless war arises ; over the 1000 years , they must have been 300 if peace was eternal ;how many times tributes were actually given ? that would give an idea as to whether the 2 countries had or not peaceful relations .
        The fates of Korea and VN are quite similar , they were both of Han culture , both tributaries states vis à vis China , they served as buffer states , protecting China against inveders and when they were attacked , China went to thir defense to avoid to have to fight on its own soil ;
        _ tha Manchus fought for VN against the first French colonial attacks and Mao China helped decisively Ho chi Minh 2 times .
        _ my namesake , Toyotomi , in the Imjin wars invaded Korea ; Ming China had to come and repulse the Japanese , dififcultly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasions_of_Korea_(1592%E2%80%931598) . Manchu China had to do the same in the 1900s . Everybody knows the Korean American war

      189. Smith says:

        Oh wow, chinkies really believe vietnamese don’t even exist and want to “unify” i.e. conquer them and they dare to talk about the 1000 colonization being fake.

        They really have no self-awareness.

        I hope they spread this view more, it will expose their modern “peaceful China” image.

      190. Brutiss says:
        @LoutishAngloQuebecker

        When whites started trying to push homosexuality on everyone..

      191. Anon[544] • Disclaimer says:
        @d dan

        The impression that China preferred a divided Vietnam comes from the fact that China was initially lukewarm about NV’s desire for unification. China’s position was never about Vietnam or against its unification. From China’s perspective, the danger of Vietnam’s civil war was getting China into war with the US. After the Korean war , the last thing China wanted was another war with the US. If NV won, everything would be fine and dandy from China’s standpoint as a unified VN was not a threat to China. (and still isn’t) On the other hand, if SV took over NV, the US military would station right at its border which was not in China’s best interest. For that reason, once the war broke out, China immediately lent its support to NV.

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